Rockbox Technical Forums

Support and General Use => User Interface and Voice => Topic started by: Davide-NYC on August 16, 2006, 01:31:50 AM

Title: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Davide-NYC on August 16, 2006, 01:31:50 AM
OK, the new button code is in! (20060815)  :D
Also Petur was kind enough to sync AGC with the CVS (20060816)  :D
DLed clean CVS, patched with AGC and compiled.
I'm testing the H300 Joystick/LCD remote with my H140.
I also dug out my regular H100 LCD remote for testing.
I do not own the non-lcd H300 remote (yet) so I can't test using that.

Having finally tried out the H100 remote during WRS (which I had never done before) I must ask a question about the H100 LCD remote button mapping:
Why are we NOT using the volume UP/DOWN jogwheel to adjust levels?
Why are we using the bitrate/source buttons (a.k.a. -10/+10) instead?


I'm trying to figure out optimal button mapping across all remotes while retaining the cool "Remote Display OFF" feature. I think using volume UP/DOWN would be much simpler and clearer. For clarity sake I've attached some images of remotes and the H1xx with all the buttons labeled exactly the same.

Using the labeling in the images, maybe this would be better in the WRS:
If it's possible to check the state of the remote LCD (on or off) before changing selection (up/down) the user could even be returned to the exact state they were at before turning on/of the remote LCD!

This also leaves the -10/+10 buttons free for whatever else someone dreams up.
I'm of the opinion this is a better way to go. Of course I could be wrong!

Mmmm, Petur, everyone... Wadayatink?

Discuss...  ;)

EVERYONE: I have re-labelled the remote buttons to illustrate my idea. The hardware is not physically labelled this way neither are the buttons named this way in the source code.

[attachment deleted by admin, too old]
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Davide-NYC on August 16, 2006, 02:19:18 AM
Yo. The remote buttons are BORKED even for regular playback.
What I mean by BORKED is that there is no way (AFAIK) to browse UP using the remote while perusing the file system in file browser mode.
Urghh. Can't get out of a directory!

I think the butons should just map as they are on the main unit.
If there is anything I can do to assist let me know.
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Massa on August 16, 2006, 03:34:16 AM
Please add a bug report to the "BUTTON CHANGES - REPORT PROBLEMS HERE (http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=5829.0)" thread.

It's more likely that Jonathan recognizes your problems if you do so ;)
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Febs on August 16, 2006, 08:04:05 AM
Yo. The remote buttons are BORKED even for regular playback.
What I mean by BORKED is that there is no way (AFAIK) to browse UP using the remote while perusing the file system in file browser mode.
Urghh. Can't get out of a directory!
This was a bug that LinusN introduced yesterday and fixed shortly thereafter.  Before filing a bug report, try the most recent CVS build to see if the problem still exists.
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Davide-NYC on August 16, 2006, 12:01:29 PM
Quote
Quote
Yo. The remote buttons are BORKED even for regular playback.
What I mean by BORKED is that there is no way (AFAIK) to browse UP using the remote while perusing the file system in file browser mode.
Urghh. Can't get out of a directory!
This was a bug that LinusN introduced yesterday and fixed shortly thereafter.  Before filing a bug report, try the most recent CVS build to see if the problem still exists.

I just DLed the lates clean from CVS, and I still cannot browse UP a level using the h100 remote. I think this was not specifically caused by the new button code an may have predated the change. I just rediscovered my H100 remote just for the sake of testing so this may be an old problem.

Quote
Please add a bug report to the "BUTTON CHANGES - REPORT PROBLEMS HERE" thread.

I think it belongs here because of the iRiver nature on the problem (multiple remotes) and the fact that some of these button mapping were like this before the major button code changes. I might be tackling a design change rather than a bug per se.


So after a night's rest I understand an inherent problem with remotes in general. Especially the non-LCD H300 remote. (this is probably obvious to everyone that uses it)
If the main unit is in the file browser or the menu you still want your 'blind' remote to function as if it were in the WPS.

Right?

Also I thought of what to use the -10/+10 (source/bitrate) buttons for on the LCD remotes.
-10/+10 could be volume controls while in either 'file browser' or 'menu' modes. So no matter what 'view' you are in at the time you always could turn the volume up/down from the remote. Why not just use the jogwheel labeled VOL you ask? because there is no dedicated volume control on the main unit and it breaks the 1to1 mapping. Whenever UP/DOWN is NOT used for volume on the main unit you reach for the -10/+10 on the remote for volume control WITHOU having to switch views or even look at the main unit. (if it's inaccessible or something)

I am not really that impressed by the jump forward/backward 10 items in a list feature currently. It doesn't take that long to HOLD LEFT/RIGHT and move forward ten items.

Question:
I am willing to generate a master table for all of these remotes and the actions associated with the various screens.
Is there someplace I can look (maybe the wiki) that has all of the available screens?
It would make the task much more manageable. Also, once all of the planning is done it should be an easy coding job (right?) for someone that has the knowledge.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Davide-NYC on August 16, 2006, 12:03:56 PM
Here's a GIF of the H3xx player which in no way varies from the unified button mapping I'm proposing.

[attachment deleted by admin, too old]
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Mmmm on August 17, 2006, 01:20:06 PM
So, Davide, what you are really suggesting is that the H1xx remote buttons should be remapped right? All the other controllers are already as you say I think (apart from the +10 -10 button of course).
Personally, I think that the way the buttons work now is very intuitive and if I remember correctly, when I first used the remote my first guesses as to which keys would do what were correct.

As far as the +10 -10 skipping 10 in the file browser goes, I agree that it doesn't take long to skip 10 entries with the normal down button, but have you tried skipping 1000 entries? It takes ages! And then try it with the +10 button. Very useful I think.

When I get home I'll fix up the remote keys for each remote (unless someone has got there before me) so hopefully we'll have our nice H1xx and H3xx remotes working as they should again.. :)

Keep coming up with the ideas though..... :P  ;)


Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Davide-NYC on August 17, 2006, 02:15:29 PM
Oh Mmmm you might be correct about the -10/+10.

I have my file structure very rigidly organized:
Music / X / Artist / year - album / track - title.ext
Where X = the first letter of the artist name.
So it never occured to me to need to scroll through more than 50 items or so.

Maybe a poll is in order? Or is it too small a user pool to be worth rocking the rockbox boat?

I will still take a stab at that 'master table' tonight when I'm done with work anyway.
I think it may still be of some use to us.
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: hotwire on August 18, 2006, 07:45:53 PM
Could you make a version of that diagram of the LCD remote with the key definitions relative to firmware/export/button.h???

I'm trying to program remote button support into the UISim, but I don't have an iriver, so I don't know what's assigned to which key.
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: hotwire on August 19, 2006, 03:21:56 AM
Okay... I'm now getting after reading the filenames of the images of the remotes in the first post above (duh, eh?) that we have, to reference how they are specified in the code:

The H300 LCD Remote: REMOTETYPE_H300_LCD
The H100 LCD Remote: REMOTETYPE_H100_LCD  <-- this is the one used in the H300 and H100 UISims currently.
and the H300 non LCD Remote: REMOTETYPE_H300_NONLCD
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Davide-NYC on August 19, 2006, 09:58:36 PM
I still think my suggestion for changing the button mapping in the WRS is valid.

In the WRS:

    * UP/DOWN = 'select item' (same as on main unit)
    * LEFT/RIGHT = 'adjust value' (same as on main unit)
    * HOLD DOWN turns off the remote's display
    * HOLD UP turns on the remote's display

If it's possible to check the state of the remote LCD (on or off) before changing selection (up/down) the user could even be returned to the exact state they were at before turning on/of the remote LCD!

This also leaves the -10/+10 buttons free for whatever else someone dreams up.

Please remember that in this instance I'm just talking about the WRS on the H300LCD remote.

Right now the remote buttons in WRS are quite mis-mapped.
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Mmmm on August 20, 2006, 09:10:40 AM
I still think my suggestion for changing the button mapping in the WRS is valid.

In the WRS:

    * UP/DOWN = 'select item' (same as on main unit)
    * LEFT/RIGHT = 'adjust value' (same as on main unit)
    * HOLD DOWN turns off the remote's display
    * HOLD UP turns on the remote's display

The only problem with this would be that it would be very easy to accidently turn on/off the display by just holding up/down a bit too long whilst changing the settings.

Quote
If it's possible to check the state of the remote LCD (on or off) before changing selection (up/down) the user could even be returned to the exact state they were at before turning on/of the remote LCD!

I'm not sure what you are saying here... If you are saying what I think you are saying then this would mean that any changes you made after switching the LCD would be lost when you switched it again. Is that right? If so, why would you want that?

Quote
Right now the remote buttons in WRS are quite mis-mapped.
The remote screen isn't updated to the new button action code yet so don't worry. I've actually finished the code for the H1/3xx but I've got to do mappings for the other recording targets before it'll work without breaking everything else (also I'm not sure if JdGordon is fixing this too..I need to talk to him first).
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Davide-NYC on August 20, 2006, 03:34:54 PM
Quote
The only problem with this would be that it would be very easy to accidently turn on/off the display by just holding up/down a bit too long whilst changing the settings.

Not for the UP/DOWN buttons, which only select the next (or previous) item in a list.
UP/DOWN should not modify settings, it would just select a different item.
Since the list of items is so small (vol, gainL, gainR, agc) user could do it al with short button presses. A long button press DOWN would turn the LCD off. A long button press UP would turn the LCD back on.

Let me explain the potential problem that I was (feebly) attempting to explain in my other statement about this idea:
Quote
If it's possible to check the state of the remote LCD (on or off) before changing selection (up/down) the user could even be returned to the exact state they were at before turning on/of the remote LCD!

Let's say a user want to shut of the RLCD to get rid of ticking.
If a user has Vol selected and then presses and holds the DOWN button I presume two things would happen.
First the selection would change to the next line down (Gain or GainL) then the LCD would shut off. But the user didn't want to select Gain (or GainL) they really just wanted to shut the RLCD off.

Oh wait, but when he presses and holds the UP button the opposite should happen, the selected item should decrement back to Vol and then the LCD should turn on. So in fact we woudn't need any checking code if it would in fact behave this way.

Nevermind, my brain is broken. But I left my ramblings in this post to illustrate what I was getting at in the first place.

Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Mmmm on August 20, 2006, 03:54:25 PM
Quote
The only problem with this would be that it would be very easy to accidently turn on/off the display by just holding up/down a bit too long whilst changing the settings.

Not for the UP/DOWN buttons, which only select the next (or previous) item in a list.
UP/DOWN should not modify settings, it would just select a different item.
Since the list of items is so small (vol, gainL, gainR, agc) user could do it al with short button presses. A long button press DOWN would turn the LCD off. A long button press UP would turn the LCD back on.

An example where your suggestion may be a problem
 
say the lcd is off and you want to move up to the volume, if you press up for just a little too long you will turn the lcd on and ...tick tick tick...a ruined recording. The LCD off button needs to be all on its own so that you cant accidently press it IMO
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Davide-NYC on August 20, 2006, 04:00:04 PM
This is a very good point.

Right now it's very easy to simply brush against the joystick DOWN button and turn on/off the RLCD.
Which was my primary reason for wanting to change it in the first place.
(along with the counter intuitive button layout)

But I never considered wanting to change values *while* recording.
This does pose a bit of a dilemma.
Maybe a key combination would be the best solution for the RLCD on/off feature?

What do we have available? Anything?
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Mmmm on August 20, 2006, 07:45:30 PM
I think you'll find it is now all just as you would want it to be! :D :o
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Davide-NYC on September 08, 2006, 02:18:09 PM
Just to update since I linked to this thread from elsewhere.

H100 remotes works as Mmmm explained for maximized one-handedness.
H300 remotes work as they should *plus* pressing the -10 button turns off the RLCD updating during recording, thus removing the ticking problem.

I still think my 'unified remote button mapping' is a valid idea, but since I don't use the H100 remote and the H300 is perfect it's moot for me.

 :)

Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: fizze on September 10, 2006, 05:08:53 AM
I hate to do crossposting, but this thread seems more appropriate.

Someone mentioned "one-handedness" WTF?
Its more like one-fongeredness. which seems plain weird to me.
I liked it the was it was, using the index finger to browse back/forward, and NAVI to select one tune. I could use the thumb to browse up/down in the folder hierarchy. which was great. I just want that back. ;)
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Mmmm on September 10, 2006, 05:34:48 AM
So your issue isnt with what the NAVI and stop buttons do at all, it is solely about the vol +/- buttons... Is that true?

If the Vol+- buttons were given the functionality you propose, then we would lose some other functionality (namely scrolling left/right) and seeing as it is already possible to navigate through folders (using stop and NAVI) repeating the function on a different set of keys at the expense of another function is a definite no-no... in my opinion of course ;)
Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: Davide-NYC on September 10, 2006, 05:03:56 PM
Fizze: Please make up a table, or post a picture. I don't understand what button mapping you are proposing exactly.

Here's the wiki page http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/KeymapIriverHSeries

Title: Re: Suggestion for unified button mapping for all iriver remotes.
Post by: fizze on September 11, 2006, 09:16:26 AM
Right, I will do when I have a few minutes to spare.
Thanks already for your understanding. :)