Rockbox Technical Forums

Support and General Use => Theming and Appearance Customization => Topic started by: Llorean on April 20, 2007, 10:28:37 AM

Title: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 20, 2007, 10:28:37 AM
Hey guys, we're always looking to pick a better default theme for Rockbox. I'm sure you've all seen the default by now. What you may not know is that it was user created, from this very thread, and there's always the possibility to improve or even replace it.

A few basic rules:

1) It must work on all targets. This doesn't mean it needs to look identical on all targets, or even have exactly the same information (for example, if the screen is small, you could leave off next track information if you chose to include it). It just needs to have a similar visual "feel" between versions. It can even use different fonts on each target. Note: To be considered working on targets with LCD remotes, it MUST include a RWPS.

2) It must be wholly original. All art must either be your own work, or must come from sources that would allow redistribution under the GPL. This means that you can't use images from other firmwares, and you should not try to make it look like Windows Media Player, Winamp, or any other of your favorit things.

3) The idea is for Rockbox to have an intuitive interface that shows it off. Try to keep it mostly simple, but 'pretty' (as you see fit). That being said, if you feel some complexity helps show it off, go ahead, but the overall feel is that if it's too cluttered to be easily readable, that's frustrating.

4) It should load quickly. Try to use as FEW individual images as possible to get your point across. Each extra file adds to load time. We want this to put forth the best foot possible. Increasing the boot time doesn't do this.

The theme does not have to say "Rockbox" or use the Rockbox colors or anything like that, but please remember, it is trying to be the Rockbox default theme so don't put anything in there to suggest anything not-Rockbox, like a favorit band or what not.

Remember that if you are chosen your real name will be included in the credits, and your work will be released under the GPL or a creative commons license that is compatible (the exact licensing isn't guaranteed yet). Because of this, please don't submit your work if it's not acceptable.

We haven't chosen an ending date for this. Yet. It may also be ongoing, as there's no reason not to change defaults if one that seems more suitable arrives.

Prebuilt win32 simulators for testing on different targets can be found here: http://rasher.dk/rockbox/simulator/

To submit a theme, post the completed theme to the patch tracker as a single .zip containing all versions of the WPS. It should also meet any additional guidelines here: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SubmitWPS You should also include an image showing screenshots of each of the versions (single image please with all screens in it).

There is no "prize" for this contest, beyond perhaps having your theme chosen as the new default. As well, any themes submitted may be chosen to be included as part of the standard build, or an "Extras" package, like the fonts, with the "official" themes.

Themes should use one of the official fonts, or a font from Rasher's set. If you must use another font, make sure to choose one with a compatible license.

Iconsets are not necessary, but are allowed, following the same license conditions.

Feel free to link to that image from this forum thread as well once you have submitted.

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 20, 2007, 11:06:59 AM
Additional information, not to clutter the first post:

WPS resolutions and depths that must be supported:
112x64x1 (Note: These screens feature rectangular pixels that are 4:5 width:height ratio)
128x128x16
138x110x2
160x128x2
160x128x16
176x132x16
176x220x16
220x176x16
240x320x16
320x240x16

Remember, some players of the same resolution have different WPS features, specifically Real Time Clock, so be aware if you want to make use of this

RWPS resolutions:
128x64x1
128x96x2

For 16-bit WPSes, you may use 24-bit images, but be aware they will display at 16 and may not appear as expected, so check that. The bitmap loading functions will adapt them to the screen (even converting 24-bit for grayscale targets) but you should attempt to test them on target, or find someone to do so, as they might not look how you expect.

Attached is a comparison image to show the differences in pixel ratio between the more common screens and the Archos screens.

[attachment deleted by admin for age]
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lights0ut on April 20, 2007, 08:27:45 PM
I nominate Rockboxed. It's a very simple, clean easy to read, but stylish theme. Plus it's got a good name, and the right colors (for the color targets of course). When I think of a default theme I think of this one. ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 20, 2007, 08:31:19 PM
The reason we're holding this is because the included themes were all not well liked enough by various groups. Rockboxed is one of the few that covers all targets, but some of us felt it's a bit garish, some of us felt it doesn't really "show off" Rockbox (it's still pretty much a basic text theme), and others liked it just fine. But there wasn't really a solid agreement.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: PHK Brasil on April 20, 2007, 10:25:20 PM
♪
Cool!
♪
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lights0ut on April 20, 2007, 11:13:20 PM

The reason we're holding this is because the included themes were all not well liked enough by various groups. Rockboxed is one of the few that covers all targets, but some of us felt it's a bit garish, some of us felt it doesn't really "show off" Rockbox (it's still pretty much a basic text theme), and others liked it just fine. But there wasn't really a solid agreement.


I get your point, there is definitely a need for a WPS that does what you said rockboxed is lacking in.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 22, 2007, 03:20:59 PM
It'd be nice to hear if anyone is interested in working on this, just so we know if nobody is working on it and we should get back to arguing about the ones we currently have.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ruster on April 22, 2007, 05:24:10 PM
I'm doing it. And i'm sure there are a bunch of other people who are just too busy with their themes to reply  ;).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: betamaxman on April 22, 2007, 07:30:59 PM
The only complaint I can voice about the default theme is the font. Why so small. You can barely read the text. I am sure the first thing most do is install the font package and pick a larger one. there must be a reason for the teeny tiny default size so, why?  8-). Other than that, love it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on April 22, 2007, 09:42:46 PM
What player do you have betamaxman? The reason for the small fot is because that is the default wps for the archos players.  So it seems very tiny on the archos players. This is supposed to be fixed on the next rockbox release (3.1). I think I am correct.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: betamaxman on April 23, 2007, 01:14:35 AM
Ipod 60gb, no biggy I figured it was was easily fixable and it was. Some might find a pain. Look forward to the next build. Thanks for the reply.  8-)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on April 23, 2007, 01:46:14 AM

What player do you have betamaxman? The reason for the small fot is because that is the default wps for the archos players.  So it seems very tiny on the archos players. This is supposed to be fixed on the next rockbox release (3.1). I think I am correct.


3.0 was supposed to be the next release... not 3.1 (neither of which has/will happen any time soon....)

and the font issue is one reason for this thread.

the aim for the default theme is that the look of rockbox is roughly the same across alll targets with minor adjustments where its necessary..

remember.. a theme is more than a WPS.. it can include all/some of the following..
(r)wps
font
icons
background for non-wps screens
background colour
foreground colour.
Title: I am interested
Post by: joey1 on April 23, 2007, 05:06:22 AM
Hi everyone
I would be interested to attempt a new default theme but i am currently still working on a theme and am about to start another for the h10 5g so i will probably not have a theme for all of the devices any time soon.
Am looking forward to seeing some nice new themes made! :)

PS. this is my first post!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Flid on April 23, 2007, 08:06:42 AM
If and when I have the time, I would love to work on this as well. I had a great idea a while back that would include a faded backdrop (WPS and menus) tailored to each players button-set with basic guidance to the player's button functions (if that makes sense). Could be complex for some targets, and impossible for Archos units... but I may still try.

Also, slightly off-topic... but what is the situation with using non-rockbox fontpack fonts (created using the font converter utility)? I've noticed a few themes on the wiki recently that use fonts that I'm guessing shouldn't be made available for public distribution?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 23, 2007, 08:28:32 AM
People should not be uploading fonts that are not publically distributable, and any themes submitted to us containing those will not be accepted.

As is said, all content that is included in the theme has to be clearly legally redistributable. If there are ones in the wiki that shouldn't be there, please remove them.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on April 23, 2007, 12:39:22 PM
I am seriously considering attempting to submit a theme for all targets but will not be able to work on it for a while (stupid uni work  :(). I already have a theme template done. will see how it goes...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 23, 2007, 01:24:26 PM
Well the contest will never end, strictly speaking. There's always the possibility to change the default theme again if something more suitable seems to come along. Only time can tell what we may see here.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on April 23, 2007, 02:10:19 PM
Well I'll definitely have a go then. Should be fun.

*edit* Thanks for the badge again Llorean.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: PHK Brasil on April 23, 2007, 08:50:25 PM

The reason we're holding this is because the included themes were all not well liked enough by various groups. Rockboxed is one of the few that covers all targets, but some of us felt it's a bit garish, some of us felt it doesn't really "show off" Rockbox (it's still pretty much a basic text theme), and others liked it just fine. But there wasn't really a solid agreement.

♪

I know this topic is not a poll, but what about the "Cabbie" theme for Rockbox default? I think this theme fits nice in the purpose. I like it.

♪
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 23, 2007, 09:20:22 PM
Firstly, as I said the theme has to work on all targets.

Secondly, the author of Cabbie would have to release it under a usable license, right now it's not under any license which means we can't do anything with it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: weirdal on April 24, 2007, 09:28:35 AM
try a starwars theme one with a lightsaber as the time bar
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 24, 2007, 09:31:14 AM
Now see, that wouldn't be suitable as a Rockbox theme.

Star Wars is someone else's intellectual property, as well as the fact that while I said it doesn't have to be Rockbox related, it should at least not have nothing to do with Rockbox (for example, a generic theme that doesn't say Rockbox anywhere, like the current default but with nicer features, would be fine, but a New Orleans Saints theme would be somewhat inappropriate).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lights0ut on April 24, 2007, 02:41:36 PM


The reason we're holding this is because the included themes were all not well liked enough by various groups. Rockboxed is one of the few that covers all targets, but some of us felt it's a bit garish, some of us felt it doesn't really "show off" Rockbox (it's still pretty much a basic text theme), and others liked it just fine. But there wasn't really a solid agreement.

♪

I know this topic is not a poll, but what about the "Cabbie" theme for Rockbox default? I think this theme fits nice in the purpose. I like it.

♪


While I do like the cabbie theme, I still see it as a very basic theme, it is better than the default, but like Llorean is pointing out we need something that shows off rockbox on the newer targets (iPod's, Gigabeats, nanos, and sansa) but can still have a presence on the older less flashy targets. This is definitely something  I'm considering taking a shot at after school finishes; really excited to see how this all turns out.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 24, 2007, 09:31:12 PM
I will say that I'm personally *very* fond of the Cabbie theme. It doesn't "show off" (looking mainly like text) but it does a good job of showing a bit of style while staying simple. There are definitely a few of us who feel very strongly that simplicity is important.

One thing I personally don't like, I'll admit (in general) are themes that have a Play, a Fast Forward, and a Rewind button as separate buttons hogging a bunch of space. Since you can't really do more than one of those at once, at most (in my own personal opinion) you really only need a single indicator (and to me personally even that's overkill: I find it fairly unlikely someone doesn't know what button they're holding down, with the exception of pause which is a toggle).

So keep that in mind, perhaps, because "clutter" is definitely the opposite of simplicity, and I do have a vote in this (though really what we're going for is consensus and if everyone but me agrees on something, I'll have no choice but to accept it, it's not like I'm stuck using the default anyway, eh? ;))
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on April 24, 2007, 10:08:01 PM
pretty much in agreement with Llorean there... except I have a gripe with the cabie theme...
If you must put the rockbox logo on the screen... make sure its the correct one!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: PHK Brasil on April 25, 2007, 04:13:06 PM
♪
Sorry, but I don't understood very well the meaning of "show off". Could you please explain to me?

Out of this contest, which WPS theme do you think that "show off"?
♪
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 25, 2007, 04:15:55 PM
That's entirely subjective. Basically, it should look good, and probably be at least somewhat graphical.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on April 25, 2007, 07:07:54 PM
Quote from:  psycho_maniac
The reason for the small fot is because that is the default wps for the archos players.  So it seems very tiny on the archos players.

It's the different way round. On the Archos screen the font is bigger. What actually counts is the dimension of the pixel (not the screen's resolution or overall size). To give you an impression, I provided the picture that is now attached to the second post in the thread. It shows the same Rockbox default theme on my Archos-Ondio and on the M5 (160x128 pixels, greyscale).

This is also something to consider when chosing font etc. for other screens. For example there are 5 targets that have 160x128 pixels wide lcds but still different panels, so the same font looks differently. I had the possibility to look at 3 of them and compared to the M5, the H100's display looks big, while the X5 is somewhere in between. And they will all look the same in a simulator on your monitor.

Another thing coming to my mind is, that there are tags that don't work on some targets, for example no crossfade on hardwarecodec targets (Archos), virtual led tag isn't enabled on all...  But I guess that can all be discussed once there are a few suggestions.


[snip]... it does a good job of showing a bit of style while staying simple. There are definitely a few of us who feel very strongly that simplicity is important.

Well put; I completely agree on the rest of the simplicity versus clutter statement, too (also on the part about space hogging - you couldn't "click" on these "buttons" anyway, could you?). You should still be able to find the most useful info, like artist/title/album etc. on the screen easily, many of the highly graphical WPSs become almost unreadable to me (loading time impact was already mentioned). Showing off rockbox could also mean: hey, this is a clean WPS - because it's a straightforward, smart project! ;)

P.S. I'd like to help out testing on Archos and would provide feedback. I'm looking forward!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: thenrik on April 25, 2007, 09:30:23 PM
I think it would be helpful to agree on a set of common elements for the default theme.

Here's what I'd suggest:

weekday, month, day of month time Percent battery remaining
xx of xx  track
Name of group
Name of song
time played so far, total time of track, time remaining
Name of next song

background that enhances the text, easy to read larger font
no icons for buttons that don't exist
screen blanking set to a longer interval, so folks won't assume Rockbox doesn't work

If we can agree on a set of common elements, the design contest would involve how to display these common elements in the most attractive way as opposed to many different combinations of elements and graphics.

My two cents,

Tom
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 25, 2007, 09:36:57 PM
I don't think it's at all necessary to mandate which elements can or cannot be included.

Especially considering in some cases there could be additional ones depending on how much screen space you have (the gigabeat has many more lines than the Recorder, and they shouldn't be expected to limit each other or define each other).

Not to mention many targets don't have a clock chip, or don't have a disk access LED so may want a virtual one in the WPS.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: NicolasP on April 28, 2007, 07:03:34 AM
Is there a reason we're not using iCatcher or Rockboxed as the current default theme ?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on April 28, 2007, 09:44:03 AM

Is there a reason we're not using iCatcher or Rockboxed as the current default theme ?


Rockboxed was deemed a bit gaudy and i think iCatcher requires patches not in svn.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 28, 2007, 11:20:22 AM
Nobody could agree on one.

iCatcher was mostly suitable (I'm really the only grumpy person who really didn't like it, I think, mostly due to the strange volume meter and the fact that I felt it looks too iPod inspired to me).

Rockboxed is oh so very orange.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: NicolasP on April 29, 2007, 08:38:17 AM
Llorean: couldn't we have iCatcher as default, at least until the contest brings something everyone agrees on ?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: bluebrother on April 29, 2007, 01:36:15 PM

Llorean: couldn't we have iCatcher as default, at least until the contest brings something everyone agrees on ?

We could, but we would need to agree upon that first ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 29, 2007, 06:04:25 PM
Why is there a huge rush to have a new default, especially if it's acknowledged we're going to be changing it again *and* people have strong objections to each of the current possible defaults?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on April 30, 2007, 02:24:59 PM
Some people don't like rockbox right away because of the fugly default wps. This is stupid. They should do some research before doing anything to things they own and they will see that they can change it very easily. The default don't bother me because I can just load a wps to my liking.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lights0ut on April 30, 2007, 02:34:27 PM

Some people don't like rockbox right away because of the fugly default wps. This is stupid. They should do some research before doing anything to things they own and they will see that they can change it very easily. The default don't bother me because I can just load a wps to my liking.


agreed, when I first started using rockbox on my iPod, I thought it wasn't very pretty but realized in about 5 minutes that oh, you can change the theme.

Rockbox is about making your player more functional as a jukebox first, so its understandable that the default doesn't look pretty. But one can't ignore the idea that a really visually impressive default theme would really wow those iPod users ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 30, 2007, 02:40:10 PM
There's certainly no harm in having a better default theme if it doesn't have drawbacks (as well, a default theme without peakmeters, at a bare minimum, would be nice, at least for PortalPlayer targets).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on May 02, 2007, 03:31:03 PM
I have created a concept of my attempt at this here: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=10254.0
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on May 03, 2007, 05:45:03 PM
Sorry to double post but I have a question (also asked in my concept thread). I wish to use the chicago12 font. Is this ok? I cant find out why it was removed from the default fonts pack.

Thanks.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 03, 2007, 06:33:59 PM
It was removed because the license doesn't allow us to redistribute it. It is not okay to use that font. Try one of the Nimbus fonts, maybe?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on May 03, 2007, 06:42:40 PM
If you want your theme to be included in official rockbox builds, you can't use the chicago-12 font. It's been removed due to possible legal issues if I remember correctly. Besides, the chicago font had a lot less characters (mainly ASCII only, not even Latin-1 or greek and cyrillic as nimbus has).

The problem is that chicago-12 was actually a 13 pixels tall font, so there should be a nimbus-13 font to really replace it. I prepared one, but it's only the -12 version with an additional line of spacing... I also noticed that the nimbus-14 is also almost the -12 version with additional spacing (the set of characters also differs a bit) so that, if a nimbus-13 would get committed, there would actually 3 "different" fonts which only differ in spacing. Would that be desired? Thinking of it: wasn't that already the case while chicago.fnt was there...

I know it's a little off-topic (but might help the project ;)) but any comments are welcome.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 03, 2007, 07:00:49 PM
I'd say your Nimbus-13 should go ahead and be committed, I don't really see a problem with it. Just my opinion though, but it'd be helpful for people migrating Chicago-12 themes easily.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on May 03, 2007, 07:05:29 PM
pixelma, Ah, ok. Back to the drawing board then. As far as i can tell the chicago12 was as you say, a 13pt font since it had an extra line of spacing. If you have a nimbus-13 (is the extra space at the top of the font?) I would be very interested in getting a copy :). The thing about a font of this size is you get only complete lines on the 160x128 targets, no cut off and useless lines.

Thanks.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on May 04, 2007, 12:19:38 PM
Hi again. Is there a list anywhere that details which players have a real time clock and which do not? I'm sure i've seen something like this in the wiki but i cant find it :(. Any help appreciated.

*edit* never mind, found it. Sorry to double post.

Though, I do have another question. As it is I am using white text and that will not work with he default icons. Can the default icons be switched to white in the eventuality that a theme with a dark background becomes the default wps? Or would it be best to just load an icon set as part of the theme, personally I want to use the white version of the rockbox default.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ColdSphinx on May 05, 2007, 02:28:34 AM
there is a white iconset by me
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IconSets#Default_Remakes_6x8x16
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GSV3MiaC on May 11, 2007, 11:54:01 AM
Do we have a winner yet? - well do we even have a clear leader? I've just installed RockBox on a Cowon/Iaudio M5L and am delighted at its functionality, audio-wise, but the default font requires a magnifier, and the default theme is boring, and of the (too many) themes and WPS which have been loaded few seem to have been designed with legibility in mind, although picking one of the bold 12 pt fonts does help a lot.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: bluebrother on May 11, 2007, 12:04:04 PM

Do we have a winner yet? - well do we even have a clear leader?


I don't think we have much complete contributions yet. I guess this will still take a while ...

Quote
and of the (too many) themes and WPS which have been loaded few seem to have been designed with legibility in mind, although picking one of the bold 12 pt fonts does help a lot.


Tried iCatcher, which is shipped with the build? UniCatcher has an even bigger font.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 11, 2007, 04:46:49 PM
I believe we have exactly one new entry since I posted this thread, so it hasn't really gotten to a "contest" point yet. :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Cassandra on May 12, 2007, 12:46:52 PM
boxes was actually created to achieve much the same goals as have been stated here.  It's not currently available for all platforms, but it could be made to be so.  It does currently look rubbish on a lot of the colour targets, but see the H3xx target for how it's *supposed* to look.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: tdtooke on May 23, 2007, 04:57:21 AM
I never noticed this thread before, gotta start paying attention.  I've always wanted to try my hand at WPS'n, expect something from me within 2 weeks or so.  @Llorean, believe it or not your picture featuring the glorious album "Red Sails in the Sunset" by Midnight Oil is probably what made me actually read this thread.  Me personally I'dve had it on Jimmy Sharman's Boxer for the screenshot though, but that's just me.  I'll actually stay on topic next time, I promise ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: sevenwords on May 28, 2007, 10:47:37 PM
what if you were to package all the themes for a certain model in the builds themselves?  That way the user can pick any theme they want right off the bat?  I'm not sure how feasible this is as I'm sure the developers have better things to do than keep track of themes for specific models, not to mention size issues like the amount of themes for the ipod, etc. but that's just an idea i'm throwing out there.  it would work with players without many themes such as the gigabeat.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 28, 2007, 11:16:25 PM
We're looking for a solution that can work for all players, and one that can keep working. For example, you mention the Gigabeats not seeming to have too many, but that won't last forever.

And a default still would need to be chosen, as we're honestly not happy with how Rockbox looks to new users, visually.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on May 29, 2007, 05:25:41 AM
In the mean time, before any entries are completed a simple backdrop could be loaded on the colour targets. Its not a wps of course but would at least make rockbox a little more appealing to new users, and would be something very quick and easy to do.

I should have my entry finished by the end of next week since I get a bit of free time then.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: senab on June 05, 2007, 05:36:27 PM
I'm going to start making an outline for my new WPS tomorrow  ;D
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: BigMac on June 05, 2007, 06:09:26 PM
Uh oh, Senab is in. Everyone else better bring their A game.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on June 05, 2007, 08:14:23 PM

I'm going to start making an outline for my new WPS tomorrow  ;

just remember, it cant need a custom build.... and work on all targets...
:D
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: senab on June 07, 2007, 08:35:01 AM


I'm going to start making an outline for my new WPS tomorrow  ;

just remember, it cant need a custom build.... and work on all targets...


I know, I know :D

I've been meaning to get to grips with Inkscape so this is my chance.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lazka on June 13, 2007, 03:11:49 PM
imho there should only be a contest for one target (maybe one with a bigger diplay) and after that is done this WPS can be ported to the other targets.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: bluebrother on June 13, 2007, 03:36:41 PM

imho there should only be a contest for one target (maybe one with a bigger diplay) and after that is done this WPS can be ported to the other targets.

I disagree -- porting especially large, colored themes to monochrome, small displays will look really ugly on all except the original device. To make a theme look nicely on all supported players all those should be kept in mind while designing.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on June 13, 2007, 04:29:08 PM
What about separate themes for the archos targets and another for all larger screened targets? The reason I ask is that keeping any sort of continuity between the large versions of my theme and the archos versions is a bit difficult. It makes more sense both visually and functionally if the theme used on the small archos screens is different to the one used as a default for the other targets.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on June 13, 2007, 04:38:03 PM
Quote
1) It must work on all targets. This doesn't mean it needs to look identical on all targets, or even have exactly the same information (for example, if the screen is small, you could leave off next track information if you chose to include it). It just needs to have a similar visual "feel" between versions. It can even use different fonts on each target. Note: To be considered working on targets with LCD remotes, it MUST include a RWPS.


Clearly on the very small screens, you can stretch "feel the same" quite a bit. If you're playing with 1bpp and a very small number of pixels, you can't be expected to have them look identical, but I felt "feel the same" was vague enough to give people the elbow room they need, but not at the same time allow for vastly different themes on each. If that were the case we could just have a vote on our favorite theme from each gallery, and be done with it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on June 13, 2007, 05:03:18 PM
I think the same as Llorean. The iCatcher theme proofs that it is possible as it in my opinion provides the same feel even on my Ondio. I appreciate it more now that I also try to make an all-targets theme, having the problem the other way round because I started off with Archos, made an 160x128 greyscale version but now it's really hard for me to nicely fill larger screens...

On a related note, the Archos screens aren't that far away from the iRiver lcd remotes (in number of pixels) which should also be considered and are even more problematic 'cause at the moment there is no way to have different fonts for main screen and remote, so you probably end up using a larger font than for the Archos version.

P.S. If one candidate catches my interest and gives me an idea, I'd be willing to help with the Archos "port" (giving feedback, especially since it looks quite different on the target than in the sim).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on June 13, 2007, 05:43:16 PM
Maybe I didn't make my point very well. What I meant was that perhaps it would make more sense to have a specific wps for targets with troublesome screens, to produce a better end result. Especially if the same wps for archos targets, according to the rules, can be very different from the same wps for larger screen targets. I don't see how it would equate to choosing the best theme for each target.

I don't wish to argue, and I'm sorry if it comes across that way.

Anyhow, I've once again run out of time and wont be able to work on my entry for a long time :(. Good luck to those attempting this, its harder than I imagined.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: adam917 on July 10, 2007, 05:28:32 PM
Will the new WPS take advantage of the new WPS-supported tags like Album Artist, Comment, and Composer? I feel that especially AA & Composer should be somewhere in the main WPS, especially since there are a lot of compilation & classical albums out there.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on July 10, 2007, 05:49:05 PM
I don't feel that it's necessary it does. It depends on what is submitted, but I would rather it not end up feeling cluttered so some things are going to have to be left out. What that ends up being depends on the WPS artist.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: jmsunlinenet on July 12, 2007, 02:03:28 AM
I've been using my Gigabeat for quite a while now with a WPS of my own devising,  and almost forgotten about this forum, but today I was fixing up a (new) i-Pod I bought for the girlfriend--the first time  I had laid hands on an i-Pod myself--and of course ran into the dreaded default theme. Not being used to the trackwheel (or whatever you call that thing) it took me a few minutes of fiddling about to be able to click on the Browse Themes screen and get it into something with a more visible font. If I had not had previous experience of this with my Gigabeat, I might have given up on Rockbox right there.

Incidentally, I installed a theme called phkTAPE, which is terrific and really amusing, though not really suitable as a default theme.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Davide-NYC on August 03, 2007, 12:39:29 PM
I just discovered the "Cabbie" theme and must offer a vote for it.
It is a very nice, useable theme that accentuates the Rockbox color theme and stands out from what the majority of original firmwares are doing.

It may have a couple of minor copyright issues with the "gigabeat", "iPod" and "iriver" logos that I've seen on the various incarnations of the theme.

Anyways there's a vote for "cabbie".
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: miles_power on August 15, 2007, 12:50:13 AM
i like the origonal besides the small font can be hard to read
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on September 16, 2007, 06:05:50 PM

I just discovered the "Cabbie" theme and must offer a vote for it.
It is a very nice, useable theme that accentuates the Rockbox color theme and stands out from what the majority of original firmwares are doing.



I have to agree.  It works very nice on both my Sansa and my Gigabeat.  I think with some minor changes it would be fine on landscape targets as well.  Its simple, but nice looking, doesn't require any extra patches, and matches the rockbox logo quite nicely.

Anyone else looked at it?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: elborak on September 16, 2007, 08:05:50 PM
I think it's a well designed theme, accomplishing what it aims to accomplish.

But I also think it's a rather ugly color scheme.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: fasmaie on September 18, 2007, 09:14:48 PM
Hello,
I am the author of the 'Cabbie' theme, and I heard about this contest a few weeks ago. This is the first chance I've had to look this up. I had no idea that the theme was popular enough to even be considered for use as the default theme for RockBox.

I am willing to port it to all targets, if I get a little help. People have already ported it to several targets, and these could be used with the permission of the maintainers. Also, the license can be changed to something more permissive.

Requests for changes would also be welcome.

All this is assuming that there will be some sort of a demand for a default theme for RockBox.

Thanks.

Yohann

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on September 19, 2007, 03:09:18 AM
There's very definitely a demand for it. I don't think anyone is in any doubt that the current default one sucks.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: rmahoney on September 19, 2007, 06:46:02 PM
One problem I had with the default theme is that the font is so tiny.  I created a large font theme (called BigFont) and it is currently available for the Sansa.  I think it would be a good idea to include a large font theme as an addition to the chosen new default theme.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on September 19, 2007, 09:01:03 PM
i think this is a decent default theme. this wps loads somehow when i load the default and something messes up. looks pretty decent.
(http://xs219.xs.to/xs219/07384/dump_070906-150739.GIF)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on September 19, 2007, 09:38:26 PM

I am willing to port it to all targets, if I get a little help. People have already ported it to several targets, and these could be used with the permission of the maintainers. Also, the license can be changed to something more permissive.


I can give you a hand.  

That said, I'd like some feedback here from the other developers.  Anyone completely opposed?  
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on September 21, 2007, 11:13:19 PM
Quick and dirty port of Cabbie to the Ipod Video:

http://www.duke.edu/~mgg6/rockbox/defaulttheme/cabbie-ipodvideo.zip
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on September 30, 2007, 08:14:44 PM
also there is no such thing as the "chicago12.fnt" in rockbox. but it seems that nimbus11 works kinda.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: theundead on October 03, 2007, 04:38:58 PM

I think it would be helpful to agree on a set of common elements for the default theme.

Here's what I'd suggest:

weekday, month, day of month time Percent battery remaining
xx of xx  track
Name of group
Name of song
time played so far, total time of track, time remaining
Name of next song

background that enhances the text, easy to read larger font
no icons for buttons that don't exist
screen blanking set to a longer interval, so folks won't assume Rockbox doesn't work

If we can agree on a set of common elements, the design contest would involve how to display these common elements in the most attractive way as opposed to many different combinations of elements and graphics.

My two cents,

Tom



Can I suggest that the new default theme should have a unicode font by default? I remember myself being confused by the little squares that showed up instead of hebrew and russian on my X5 when I first used Rockbox.. :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Henrik on November 20, 2007, 06:30:35 AM
Give the prize to whoever made the theme Cabbie. It's clean, simple and beautiful.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on November 20, 2007, 10:19:37 AM

Give the prize to whoever made the theme Cabbie. It's clean, simple and beautiful.


But unfortunately it's not cross target.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on November 30, 2007, 07:15:30 AM
porting it to other targets shouldn't be hard...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on November 30, 2007, 07:28:43 AM

porting it to other targets shouldn't be hard...


Then you know what to do  ;).


To anyone who cares: I got pretty far with my wps (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIriverH300#Ultima_v1_0) but I ran out of time and am now too busy to do any more (last year of uni). Most of the important stuff got done; most of the code and graphics for most targets. If anyone wants to carry on with it then pm me and I can send you all the .psd's and codes etc...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on November 30, 2007, 08:34:00 AM
now, that looks nice. very contemporary. is there an album art version?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on November 30, 2007, 12:29:20 PM
thanks :). I made it long before album art was committed to cvn. Don't really know if album art would fit in, especially if it were to be used as a default theme.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 03, 2007, 03:10:47 PM
why no album art on the default theme? I think the default theme should look nice and support the basic features people expect from an audio player.

I just made a more flashy looking, album art version of the Cabbie theme for my Iriver h340:

(http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/forumpics/cabbie1.jpg)

(http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/forumpics/cabbie2.jpg)

would that be suitable for a default theme?
if anybody wants to port it to other targets I can provide the original graphics.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: NicolasP on December 03, 2007, 04:22:01 PM
Wow, that's very nice!
There is one thing that would prevent it from being suitable for a default theme, though: the unofficial logo. A default theme would need to have the official logo or no logo at all. Also we don't even know if we can use that logo, as all attempts to contact its author have been unsuccessful (to my knowledge).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 03, 2007, 04:41:43 PM
I see. I will make one with an official logo.
A shame about the inofficial logo, though. I really like it.

Is there something like a basic, stripped down version of the official logo?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 03, 2007, 06:00:31 PM

why no album art on the default theme? I think the default theme should look nice and support the basic features people expect from an audio player.

Umm, I only expect an audio player to play music... ;)

Anyways, I would only like an album art version as default if it's coded flexible enough to also look good if there is no album art present (if at all). I wouldn't expect people to have set up everything to display album art when first starting Rockbox and even if it'll be easier one day - not all people want album art even though it's something to show off with.

Another thing to keep in the back of your head: not all players Rockbox supports can show album art (all with monochrome display) and on some it doesn't look as good (all with greyscale displays and maybe on small displays). Of course not each and every information/feature needs to be present in all the different displays but porting in a way to get at least the same feel isn't easy in general and album art doesn't make it easier...

About this particular version of Cabbie: while your WPS sure looks nice at first glance and the graphics are well done, your layout makes the next track info more important than the current track in my eyes (both show the same things about artist, track and album but the current track has less "room").
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 03, 2007, 06:24:07 PM
Also with that layout, the only option when there's no Album Art is a large chunk of empty space.

My suggestion would be to have the "Now Playing" image be an actual image, rather than part of the background, and use an album art conditional so that you can use an alternate, full width image when there's no Album Art present, as well as doing the same for the rest of the information.

As it is now, it looks like there's a very small WPS crunched beside the Album Art, while 2/3 of the screen is full of "Extraneous" information, things that might be nice to have but aren't the main purpose of the screen (information about the currently playing song).

I do feel very, VERY strongly that whatever WPS is chosen should not only work when AA isn't present, but shouldn't have a hole in it where the AA belongs. It shouldn't be apparent that something is missing just because the user doesn't have, or hasn't yet prepared, their album art.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 03, 2007, 06:37:49 PM
Many good points pixelma, but for me the cover is still an essential part of the album. different philosophy I guess.

actually there is more information about the current track if you consider the progress bar and the cover - which makes it more cluttered. I could fill the empty spaces with more information or align the next track info left and fill the space on the right with larger icons, but I don't think it would look good.
Another problem I didn't consider when designing the backdrop was that I can't place the text as simple as the pictures. That's why the margins on the upper part are a bit off.

Llorean, I will try to make a more basic version based on your suggestions.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 03, 2007, 06:42:39 PM
Not necessarily more basic. It just should look complete with or without album art rather than clearly being an album art WPS with art missing when it's not present.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 03, 2007, 09:52:32 PM
How do you like this?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 03, 2007, 10:09:18 PM
Other than the logo, much better in my humble opinion. :)

I'm fond of that logo, but we really can't use it at this time.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 03, 2007, 10:19:04 PM
I know :) haven't had the time to change it, yet.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 03, 2007, 10:54:11 PM
This theme looks like it has the potential to be ported to some of the smaller mono targets.

A possible alternative to avoid a gap when album art isn't found would be to display a Rockbox logo bmp.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LinusN on December 04, 2007, 03:38:38 AM
I really like this theme. It has potential!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LambdaCalculus379 on December 04, 2007, 08:37:59 AM
Looks much nicer now!  :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LinusN on December 04, 2007, 08:46:15 AM
Looks really good. One nitpick: the inofficial logo is still in the icon set.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 04, 2007, 08:47:15 AM
Ok, fixed the logo. Anything else that needs fixing?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 04, 2007, 08:49:11 AM
Looks really good. One nitpick: the inofficial logo is still in the icon set.


right. a pity. it's a really nice icon set.
a shame that jeanreno gave up posting on the misticriver forums..
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Febs on December 04, 2007, 08:52:10 AM


Looks really good. One nitpick: the inofficial logo is still in the icon set.



right. a pity. it's a really nice icon set.
a shame that jeanreno gave up posting on the misticriver forums..


Indeed.  I tried e-mailing him through the e-mail address he used to register at Mistic River, but the account is inactive.

ZincAlloy, one suggestion:  if the word "Rockbox" on the background image were in the lower right hand corner rather than the upper right, there would be fewer collisions with items in the menus and browsers.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 04, 2007, 09:10:33 AM


ZincAlloy, one suggestion:  if the word "Rockbox" on the background image were in the lower right hand corner rather than the upper right, there would be fewer collisions with items in the menus and browsers.


Imho collisions are unavoidable. But I will give it a try.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 04, 2007, 09:51:30 AM
better?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 04, 2007, 10:15:58 AM
Have we tried every possibility  to contact this person with the awesome rockbox log? Where was this logo talked about? (the one we officially cant use)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 04, 2007, 10:26:50 AM
here: http://www.misticriver.net/forums/rockbox-h3xx-series/37830-h300-optimized-logo-contest-poll.html

there's nothing we can do besides emailing him.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 04, 2007, 11:15:53 AM
Anybody look up other forums with  that name? I really would like to see this in the official theme. Looking up links i found:
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/2139985-post15.html

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-user.cfm?id=135194

http://forums.windrivers.com/calendar.php?c=1&week=969148800&do=displayweek&month=9

all from the same location as in the misticriver profile.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on December 04, 2007, 11:30:07 AM
I too really like the later incarnations of this theme, and look forward to seeing them on other targets!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: NicolasP on December 04, 2007, 01:27:24 PM
ZincAlloy: There is one thing that still needs fixing: the icon for the title of the main menu is still the unofficial one. Apart from that, I think it's really good with the new layout and the stylised official Rockbox logo.
If you post the original artwork I might even try making a Gigabeat version :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: denny on December 04, 2007, 01:54:40 PM
looks great  :). The only thing I can see that looks odd is the logo. I would try to keep some distinction between the 'rock' and the 'box' arts of the image (different shades of grey perhaps?) as well as the treble clef.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 04, 2007, 02:27:44 PM

ZincAlloy: There is one thing that still needs fixing: the icon for the title of the main menu is still the unofficial one. Apart from that, I think it's really good with the new layout and the stylised official Rockbox logo.
If you post the original artwork I might even try making a Gigabeat version :)


Is there a nice looking icon set that we can use without any further problems?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 04, 2007, 02:29:39 PM
Why not just replace that one icon? Iconsets are merely a set of bmp files.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 04, 2007, 02:33:12 PM
I know, but are we allowed to use the rest of the icon set?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 04, 2007, 02:45:06 PM
It depends entirely on what license the rest of the iconset are under. The images aren't loading, but I'm pretty sure you were either using Silk or Tango icons, both of which come under licenses that should allow us to redistribute them, if memory serves.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 04, 2007, 02:51:29 PM
It's the 12x12x16 Tango set from the icon gallery.
The description says that the icons are "from the "Tango Desktop Project" (http://tango.freedesktop.org/) and from "Jakub Steiner" (http://jimmac.musichall.cz/)".

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 04, 2007, 02:54:42 PM
Well any icons directly from Tango can be reused as they're under a CC-by-SA license. The other link is to a contributor to Tango. I don't know which icons come just from his site, but if they aren't under a license that allows redistribution, the original creator of the iconset probably shouldn't have been able to use them unless he happens to be Jakub Steiner himself.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 04, 2007, 03:02:38 PM
we know for a fact that the original author doesn't really care about licensing, since he included jeanreno's logo...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 04, 2007, 05:37:54 PM

Anybody look up other forums with  that name? I really would like to see this in the official theme. Looking up links i found:
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/2139985-post15.html

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-user.cfm?id=135194

http://forums.windrivers.com/calendar.php?c=1&week=969148800&do=displayweek&month=9

all from the same location as in the misticriver profile.


obviously you just did. have you tried to contact him?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 04, 2007, 07:06:34 PM
Included a customized (am I actually allowed to do this?...licensing is confusing...) version of tango 12x12x16.
I'm gonna load it up to the wiki now.

here's the original graphics (psd): http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/forumpics/cabbie2graphics.zip

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on December 05, 2007, 02:37:31 AM
That looks about perfect now.

So when can we expect to see the versions for other targets? ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 05, 2007, 02:45:31 AM
as soon as you port them  ;D
crzyboyster is making a nano port and nicolasp might make the gigabeat version...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 05, 2007, 05:27:54 PM
So... is there a chance that this theme actually becomes  the default theme? And yes, I am currently porting it, it should be up by this weekend because I have lots of stuff to do.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 05, 2007, 05:29:04 PM
The conditions are still the same: It needs to be converted for all players.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 06, 2007, 12:18:25 AM
Ported for the Sansa e200 series:

(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsSansaE200/Cabbie2WPS-AA.png) (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsSansaE200/Cabbie2WPS.png) (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsSansaE200/Cabbie2-Menu.png)

(See the wiki for the download if you want to modify it)

Unfortunately the Sansa screen is very thin so having text to the right or left of album art is difficult, even with this thin font, so it has to go underneath if you don't want "The Doodads" to scroll.  I sacrificed the next song info to get the album art in there at a decent size and avoid cluttering up the screen (having the album cover smaller with another space after the album title and then the next song info is really too much, try it yourself!).  

I would like to take this oppourtunity to thank SoCo on ice for the cool comfort it gave my head while doing this, and also to say that hard work is only it's own reward if other people give a hoot.  

Best,
Marc

P.S. I just looked to see if the font supported other alphabets (typical English speaker) and it doesn't.  I think it would be a good idea, given that this is an international thing, to have a Unicode font for the default theme.

---

ZincAlloy: I found a bug in the Cabbie 2 WPS you posted in the wiki.  The vol3.bmp file never gets declared or called.   You can use lowercase letters as variables in case you thought you had run out.  Cheers.

---

One more note:  I put the Shuffle and Repeat images together on the left because they will disappear when not activated (I personally never use them), and it looks strange to have gaping holes amongst the icons on the botton.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 06, 2007, 02:52:24 AM
very nice! good job!
I found the volume bug last night and fixed it. I will update the files in the wiki later today.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: fml2 on December 06, 2007, 03:40:08 AM

Ported for the Sansa e200 series:


I find the WPS nice looking in general, but I don't quite like the fact that all the settings are displayed "equally prominent". IMHO, the current status (play/pause/...) is a more important indicator than e.g. whether the hold switch is on or off.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 06, 2007, 03:44:40 AM
Hm, and I'd feel quite the opposite. I know if it's playing or pausing by whether I hear something, so I don't even need another indicator. Meanwhile Hold is something I'd have to check the top/side of the player for, so an onscreen indicator prevents me from having to press a button to see if it's on hold, or turn the player, so it's "mandatory" in my opinion that it be displayed somewhere, while Play/Pause is a secondary that could be lost for space (to me).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 06, 2007, 07:27:58 AM
that reminds me: why is there a wps tag for "stop" playing mode? It has no use at all since the while playing screen can't be displayed in stop mode.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: bascule on December 06, 2007, 07:34:59 AM

that reminds me: why is there a wps tag for "stop" playing mode? It has no use at all since the while playing screen can't be displayed in stop mode.


Just because... http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=5703.0
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 06, 2007, 07:39:59 AM
ahh. I see...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: fml2 on December 06, 2007, 08:17:26 AM

Hm, and I'd feel quite the opposite.


You may very well be right and I even tend to agree with you. But my main statement still holds: the many indicators are not equal citizens :-)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on December 06, 2007, 09:19:33 AM
...In your opinion.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 06, 2007, 09:37:16 AM
Yeah, I don't think the idea here is to make a perfect theme that will make everybody happy.  I can't see myself using this one just because I don't care about a lot of the information it displays and it's missing some stuff I do care about, but I spent a few hours working on it anyway because the default theme needs to be changed.  At the moment, it stinks; it makes Rockbox look like an old jalopy instead of the sportscar that it is.  So how about we keep our criticisms to "your code is broken", "that isn't logical", "it doesn't match the theme design", "that's illegal", etc., etc, instead of focussing on matters of taste.  Nobody will ever force you to use it, you're more than welcome to modify it to suit your personal needs, and in the meantime these comments just act to distract from the task at hand.  No?

Marc
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on December 06, 2007, 09:52:51 AM
Well said that man.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 06, 2007, 03:12:51 PM
So if this actually flies and the theme gets adapted to all 11 (?) screen sizes, does a new splash screen get designed as well?  The blue looks pretty odd with the current black&yellow colour scheme.  I'd be content with a simple switch of the background colour from blue to black and whatever little changes that implies.  
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 06, 2007, 04:36:57 PM
let's stick to the cliches :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 06, 2007, 05:24:06 PM
Actually, I think that the current boot logo matches the theme quite well and that we should only change the current boot logo if necessary because I actually like it quite a bit.

Also, I've been trying to port the theme to the nano. Everything's fine, but my question is this: Can I change the layout a bit? Because with helvR10 font (the only one that "flows"), everything won't fit in. Also, can I move around some stuff? I'm also planning on using alternating sublines, is this acceptable?

Thanks
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 06, 2007, 05:36:33 PM
sure, do whatever you need to to make it look good.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 06, 2007, 05:45:26 PM

let's stick to the cliches :)


 :) Funny, I read this at work and the image wasn't displayed so I had no idea what you were talking about.  It's purty.  1 vote.

Quote from: crzyboyster
Actually, I think that the current boot logo matches the theme quite well


For sure, the logo's fine, but the background colour is off.  That's all I'm sayin'.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 06, 2007, 06:06:23 PM
I'd go with white over black. I think a black background would look bad on the mono targets, while white would present a more consistent visual aesthetic between targets, even if the backdrop is black on the color targets once you get past the splash.

Also, remember that the version number needs to be visible in the splash.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 06, 2007, 06:10:38 PM
Talking of mono targets, apparently the only way to get the Cabbie "white text on a black background" look is to use the LCD invert feature, but unfortunately that messes up album art.

Does anyone have a simple/feasible fix?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 06, 2007, 06:11:42 PM
On a mono target you should use black text on white background. It's much harder to read without using the backlight otherwise.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 06, 2007, 06:58:30 PM

I'd go with white over black. I think a black background would look bad on the mono targets, while white would present a more consistent visual aesthetic between targets, even if the backdrop is black on the color targets once you get past the splash.

Also, remember that the version number needs to be visible in the splash.


Imho consistency between targets isn't as important as a consistent look and feel of the different screens.
gradient backdrop -> gradient splash
white backdrop -> white splash  would be my preference


How is the version number diesplayed? can the color be changed to white? can it still be displayed when a bmp covers the entire screen?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 06, 2007, 07:52:41 PM
Shabamz.  Ported for the c200.

There's no Rockbox gallery for the c200 yet so I've got nowhere to put the files.  Maybe someone with super-powers could create one?

---

Update:  Links to the theme (http://www.sendspace.com/file/lbhfuo) and Photoshop graphics (http://www.sendspace.com/file/9mrb0d).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 06, 2007, 08:04:27 PM

There's no Rockbox gallery for the c200 yet so I've got nowhere to put the files.  Maybe someone with super-powers could create one?

I asked around in IRC if I should create such a page a while ago. The answer was that this WPS gallery would soon be replaced be a new official version of "themes.rockbox.org" and this one would already be set up for the c200...

About your version itself - I think it could use a smaller font because the pixels on that display aren't very small and it really could have one or two more lines especially in the browser - but I also know that there aren't many choices if you want a 10 pixels tall font for example...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 06, 2007, 08:18:48 PM

I asked around in IRC if I should create such a page a while ago. The answer was that this WPS gallery would soon be replaced be a new official version of "themes.rockbox.org" and this one would already be set up for the c200...


Alrighty... Seems like you can't even upload to themes.rockbox.org right now because of server problems... Any suggestions on where I throw it in the meantime?

Quote

About your version itself - I think it could use a smaller font because the pixels on that display aren't very small and it really could have one or two more lines especially in the browser - but I also know that there aren't many choices if you want a 10 pixels tall font for example...


I was just rolling with what had already been started (I don't own one of these units so I can't even say how it looks for real).  Feel free to mess with it once it's given a home.  (Update:  put links to the theme and graphics in my previous post).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 06, 2007, 08:51:35 PM
wow, that display is tiny  :o
how does it look with album art ?:D

a smaller font might indeed work better on such a tiny display..
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: melancholydm on December 06, 2007, 08:55:19 PM
i doubt album art would be something you'd worry about if you are limited to such a small space
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 07, 2007, 08:44:49 AM
A first attempt at a port for the 1G2G iPod (160x128 mono). Feel free to offer suggestions to improve it (I'm not an artist) :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LambdaCalculus379 on December 07, 2007, 08:47:13 AM
Wow... very nice work you did, yapper!

This'll look great on the greyscale targets!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 07, 2007, 02:10:27 PM

A first attempt at a port for the 1G2G iPod (160x128 mono). Feel free to offer suggestions to improve it (I'm not an artist) :)


Lookin' good.  The icon set should be inverted to match the white background colour but aside from that, wicked bad.  

I presume that it centers the text when there's no album art?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 07, 2007, 04:45:00 PM
Hello, this my first post on the board, but I have been a viewer for about a year.

I have been working on a Gigabeat port of this WPS. Tell me what you think.  ???
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 07, 2007, 04:51:10 PM
you've changed "now playing" font. I think you should stick to the original one to improve uniformity.



edit:nearly forgot: welcome to the board!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 07, 2007, 05:04:45 PM
Having the progress bar for the current song after the "Next Song" header strikes me as a bit disorienting... Though I don't have any suggestions on how to move things around to make it more logical, and other than that it looks good to me.  Nice to see people jumping in!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 07, 2007, 06:08:00 PM
Thanks for comments!

I currently don't have anyway to edit psd files so I just used some simple MS paint skills to make the port.
What is the name of the font in the original wps, maybe I can fix it in some way.

Also, I know that layout is kinda weird, but it really didn't look right any other way.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 07, 2007, 06:16:25 PM
You can download a 30 day trial version of Photoshop CS3 from adobe.com - which I recommend you to use, since the writing has a highlight applied to it.
The font is Arial Black.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 07, 2007, 06:41:19 PM
Photoshop makes it much easier to work with the faded background too...

As for the Next Song thing I see two possible solutions:

1) Get rid of the yellow "Next Song" bar and replace it with a simple "Next Song: blah blah by the blah blahs" text line like the other ones (you could compensate for the extra space with larger album art or a larger font size if it's needed), or

2) Switch the current song progress bar & song times with the next song bar & info.

Or leave it, maybe I'm the only one who thinks it's doesn't make sense...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 07, 2007, 06:50:13 PM
Hey, I'm almost done with the nano version, in case someone wants to steal my port when I've done about 80% of it. Here's a preview and mosy of it works, I just need to open up the background in photoshop and move the progress bar a few pixels up. Also, what's with the repeat icons? They all have different names, but how are we to know the difference between each, there's practically none... Please leave feedback, as I can still make lots of changes and then release it.

P.S. Do I get my name in the credits for doing this? Thanks

Note: I converted this screendump from a .bmp to a .jpg and that's why its a bit blurry, but it's not like that at all on the actual thing.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 07, 2007, 06:50:59 PM

A first attempt at a port for the 1G2G iPod (160x128 mono). Feel free to offer suggestions to improve it (I'm not an artist) :)


not too bad, but I think it needs cleaner graphics. This isn't an easy port at all.

There's two options:
a) ditch the highlighting effects and go for a simple black and white. Basically a black and white version of Yohann Miquitta's original Cabbie theme.
b) make full use of the players grayscale capabilitys and design completely new icons and bars using the basic shapes of Cabbie 2.0. Take a look at how other people have achieved great results at that task. Chris Berkeley's themes are a good example, but there's many more to find at the wps gallery.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: NicolasP on December 07, 2007, 06:53:36 PM

I currently don't have anyway to edit psd files so I just used some simple MS paint skills to make the port.

You could try the GIMP. It's free (as in freedom), and it's considered a pretty viable alternative to Photoshop.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 07, 2007, 06:56:37 PM

Also, what's with the repeat icons? They all have different names, but how are we to know the difference between each, there's practically none... Please leave feedback, as I can still make lots of changes and then release it.

P.S. Do I get my name in the credits for doing this? Thanks


you're right. they're too small to read. They're hard to read on a h300, but on a nano it's impossible.. I think we need a new icon there...

apart from that it's looking great so far. you may nudge the next song bar a tiny bit up as well..
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 07, 2007, 07:10:26 PM
Another thing that I think you should do is rename the icons file and rename it in the .cfg file because it may conflict with existing tango iconsets as this one was slightly modified, correct?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 07, 2007, 07:15:24 PM

Hey, I'm almost done with the nano version... Please leave feedback, as I can still make lots of changes and then release it.


From a quick glance it looks like the Rockbox logo in the bottom left could be lowered a bit to line up with the icons.  Also, maybe add a "Next Song: " before the next song tag to be more consistent with the others and to explain what it is?  And I gotta ask:  It centers when there's no album art, right?

Quote from: ZincAlloy
you may nudge the next song bar a tiny bit up as well.


Do you mean the Now Playing bar?  I don't see no Next Song bar on his...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 07, 2007, 07:20:42 PM
probably. but then again the original tango icons shouldn't be available on this site for download, so maybe we should replace them completely.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 07, 2007, 07:22:53 PM



Quote from: ZincAlloy
you may nudge the next song bar a tiny bit up as well.


Do you mean the Now Playing bar?  I don't see no Next Song bar on his...


Of course. My bad. Sorry for the confusion. I still had kperri's theme in a corner of my mind when writing this.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 07, 2007, 08:12:12 PM
I managed to fix up my theme in photoshop. I think I'm about 95% done. Give me some more feedback. Also, about the "Next Song" text, instead of including that, I want to put in some song info, also the next song title, album and artist  will be in an alternating subline, so it shouldn't be a problem. Leave some more feedback about this version. All 3 screendumps attached!

Again, note that they are a bit blurry.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 07, 2007, 08:46:08 PM

not too bad, but I think it needs cleaner graphics.


I agree. I'm probably going to have a go at creating new greyscale versions of the Cabbie 2.0 graphics (the current ones are resampled version of yours, and as you spotted, they aren't too great).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 07, 2007, 10:18:07 PM
Wow i see this theme is getting popular. Looks very good. cant wait for it to get ported to all players. that will look so cool.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 07, 2007, 10:44:50 PM
I know! So many people want the default theme changed! I myself am not that sure. If this theme can be pulled off well for all players, I will be for it.


P.S. Llorean, what do you think about changing the default theme to this theme?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 07, 2007, 10:50:57 PM
Well, it's hardly my decision alone, though I'm pretty sure I can get most people behind it. I think I'd like to see the grayscale version cleaned up a bit (using real grayscale artwork, more optimized for the screen) for example.

Then again, I'm notoriously picky about some things.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 07, 2007, 10:53:48 PM
Even if it doesn't become the DEFAULT theme, it could be one of the themes that come with rockbox in it's builds (the ones preinstalled), right?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 07, 2007, 10:56:51 PM
That possibility's really there for nearly any theme, I guess.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 07, 2007, 11:02:31 PM
kperri if your theme is "approved" as in the original creator or whatever likes it you should post it on the wiki :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 08, 2007, 02:50:34 AM
I've played with greyscale variants of the graphics, but with the limited space they tend to look 'ragged'. Therefore I've opted to use simple mono graphics for the status stuff at the bottom of the WPS.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 08, 2007, 04:31:30 AM
I would also like it much better if the greyscale version could carefully make use of the greyscale capabilities - but of course this needs a bit more work. It was a bit of a pity that the greyscale version of denny's "ultima" theme didn't use the full potential (in my eyes) and look less "rich" than the colour versions.

To have full control about the result I would probably edit the graphics a bit in a graphics program so that they only use the 4 grey levels and not just scale it down. The dithering makes it look a bit "noisy" and there is no real border - I'd imagine something like the  beveledRBX (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIriverH100#beveledRBX_by_MathieuStempell) or the SimpleHelv (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIriverH100#JamesFerguson) WPSs in the gallery. So it would be a bit like the progress bar in yapper's last post which is a good start. :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 08, 2007, 05:32:07 AM

I've played with greyscale variants of the graphics, but with the limited space they tend to look 'ragged'. Therefore I've opted to use simple mono graphics for the status stuff at the bottom of the WPS.


much better now. the progress bar is looking good. can you make the now playing bar look like the progress bar? the text on it should be white imho.
I think the icons should sport the same look as the progress bar. have you tried using the colors the progress bar uses on them?
   
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 08, 2007, 12:18:00 PM
Aha!  I just made a big breakthrough in my attempts at using greyscale. It appears that the progress bar is more forgiving in rendering greyscales, but the other graphics require very specific shades of grey to avoid dithering kicking in (RGB all 85 decimal for the dark grey and 170 decimal for the lighter grey).

Now all I have to do is create the graphics  :-\
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 08, 2007, 03:41:39 PM

It appears that the progress bar is more forgiving in rendering greyscales


I've just been messing around with some greyscale stuff and noticed that the placed images (%xl, %xd) are translated much better than the background (%X) image.  If you place the "Now Playing" bar instead of having it ingrained in the background image it shows up very nicely.  Now I'm trying to find out how to reproduce the 2 shades of grey that it displays as solids for the progress bar backdrop, which has to been in the background image.  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get that information?  I've tried copying the examples in the WPS gallery but the greys have been tainted by the blue/green glow of the screens...

Choochoo,
Marc
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 08, 2007, 04:01:37 PM
@Marc:
Check my previous post. The two greys that look good use RGB values of 85 (1/3 of 255) and 170 (2/3 of 255) respectively.

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 08, 2007, 05:23:04 PM

Check my previous post.


I need to learn how to read the first time... Thanks for the double tips...

iAudio X5 & iriver H10 20GB
(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIaudioX5/cabbie2-iAudioX5-menu.png)  (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIaudioX5/cabbie2-iAudioX5-WPS.png)  (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIaudioX5/cabbie2-iAudioX5-WPS-AA.png) (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIaudioX5/cabbie2-iAudioX5-RWPS.png)

It's in the wiki here:

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIaudioX5#Cabbie_2_0

And my wrist's carpal tunnel hurts here:

---

Pixelma:  Like that?

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 08, 2007, 05:46:49 PM
A minor nitpick about the dark greyscale bars (now playing and the progress bar) - I would draw them the other way round (the black being in the lower part) as the highlight and shadow in the colour version. Currently it looks sunken and not popping out because our brain expects to see things as if they were lit from top. But all on all, it's developing nicely. :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 08, 2007, 08:42:48 PM
Well, my nano port is now finally 99.99% finished! Attached is a screenshot.
It uses 2 alternating sublines:

The first one after the current track, album, and artist displays the following:
Bitrate of current song, playlist postition (x of x) and file format (mp3, etc).

The second one for the next song info shows the following:
"Next Song:" (just to show what it's displaying), next track name, next artist name, next album name.

My only real worry for this is that since this is for the nano and most ipod users are oriented to this display order for the track:

Quote
Track Name
Artist Name
Album Name


Why don't we make it that way for the ipod versions of this theme?

And that leads me to to my next question: Is anyone making an ipod video version of this theme?

My nano version will be uploaded to the wiki as soon as its OKed by everyone and thoroughly bug checked.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 08, 2007, 08:59:50 PM
Wow this theme looks really good. I got my e260 today and installed it and this is the first theme i installed because it looked really good and there is talk about it maybe being the default theme. Looks really good.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 08, 2007, 09:01:30 PM
I'm going to take a look at the WPS code for the H10 20GB and X5 version of this theme, for some reason the status icons don't seem to be registering properly.  Hopefully it's a simple fix and I can upload a working copy in a short while.  Also, does anyone mind if I re-upload it as a .zip instead of a .rar as it is currently?

EDIT:  I hope no one minds, but I'm also cleaning the WPS up a little more for the sake of readability, since it was very cluttered without any new lines when declaring the images to load. Never mind, apparently there are new lines, notepad couldn't see them but OpenOffice's Writer app could.

EDIT the 2nd:  Of course, the reason the images aren't registering is because they're off the screen!  Should hopefully have this cleaned up shortly!

EDIT the 3rd (and final):  The edits have been made, theme works properly now!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 08, 2007, 09:41:24 PM
I should probably mention this again. You really can't see the difference between all of the repeat icons. New ones should be made or the existing ones made better. I already edited the A-B one and the 1 one. They are in a zip linked (for now) to rapidhare. The others need to be made better. Mine aren't very good either, they were a quick edit in paint. If anyone can fix this...

http://rapidshare.com/files/75293445/Unfinished_Cabbie_Default_Repeat_Icons.zip.html
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 08, 2007, 10:11:13 PM
I've posted my attempt at a Cabbie 2.0 port for the iPod 1G2g greyscale here:http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIriverH100#Cabbie_2_0

I'm not satisified with the icons, so if anyone wants to improve them, please do!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on December 08, 2007, 11:20:10 PM

The conditions are still the same: It needs to be converted for all players.


Any reason we can't roll it out one resolution at a time?  I imagine this is going to take a few commits before we're  happy with how the default looks on each target, since most people only have a few players to test it on.  I imagine that as people start using it, we'll get a flood of comments about how it looks, glitches, etc.  Doing it all at once would be nice since we'd get it over with, but I think doing it one resolution at a time would be good too.  
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 08, 2007, 11:22:09 PM
Well, I am practically done with my nano version, I will upload it tomorrow and everyone can compulsively bug check it (although I have already done that) and maybe then we can commit the nano version? I agree with saratoga, though, it should be one at a time.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 08, 2007, 11:23:13 PM
I think though the problem with that could be that we start rolling it out with less than 2/3 or so of targets supported, and once again people porting it peters out.

I wouldn't mind rolling it out a few at a time, and I wouldn't mind rolling it out before they're *all* finished, but my personal preference (bearing in mind I don't have any special say in this anyway) is that we at least wait until we have a majority of targets simply so that we can say "most" targets have the new default theme, and it's the exception that a target doesn't have it, rather than the exception that it does.

Otherwise, we could just roll out iCatcher as a default for now, start importing this into SVN but not as a default, then if it does hit all targets, switch over?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 08, 2007, 11:40:56 PM

Otherwise, we could just roll out iCatcher as a default for now, start importing this into SVN but not as a default, then if it does hit all targets, switch over?


No way! I say let's wait as we have waited long enough and a month or two won't make a lot of difference, would it? Besides that, I happen to dislike the iCatcher theme on my nano.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 08, 2007, 11:47:17 PM
I'm almost done with my Gigabeat port, but I don't know what to do with all of the space left if there is no Album Art. Any suggestions?  ??? Anyways here is the finished screen shot showing with Album Art. By the way the Album Art can be 150x150 or smaller, and the next song is an alternating subline with Artist and Title.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 08, 2007, 11:54:02 PM
I agree that iCatcher isn't a candidate (IMHO).

It's taken from April 20 2007 until now for a snowball effect to start. I say we wait it out a week or so to see who else contributes to the Cabbie 2.0 porting. It would be nice to see one of the families (iPod/Sansa/Gigabeat, etc) completely covered.

Then, if needed, a few diplomatically worded posts might provoke some Cabbie 2.0 porting effort for the targets not currently covered ("come on you XXX losers, all the Cabbie 2.0 ports for YYY have been completed ")   ;)

More seriously, I don't think it's necessary for a particular port to be 'perfect'. Once it gets imported into SVN, users can improve the port, much the same as other features are tweaked as an ongoing process.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on December 08, 2007, 11:59:04 PM

I think though the problem with that could be that we start rolling it out with less than 2/3 or so of targets supported, and once again people porting it peters out.


Well that was the other thing I was thinking about.  Hopefully if a port is left without a default theme, it would encourage people to work on it.  Right now the only people who know about this are the ones that regularly watch the forums, which can't be more then a small fraction of the people potentially interested.


I wouldn't mind rolling it out a few at a time, and I wouldn't mind rolling it out before they're *all* finished, but my personal preference (bearing in mind I don't have any special say in this anyway) is that we at least wait until we have a majority of targets simply so that we can say "most" targets have the new default theme, and it's the exception that a target doesn't have it, rather than the exception that it does.


This seems reasonable.   I wouldn't want to release without the Video and Sansa supported at least, since that seems to be what most people ask about.


Otherwise, we could just roll out iCatcher as a default for now, start importing this into SVN but not as a default, then if it does hit all targets, switch over?


I like this idea, but I'd like to give the current effort a little more time.  Maybe we could do this if we haven't made progress on a default theme by the new year?

Quote from: yapper

I agree that iCatcher isn't a candidate (IMHO).


Maybe not as a final choice, but as an interim choice, its worlds better then the current default.  
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 12:11:48 AM
Sounds good. If more than 2/3 of targets have versions of Cabbie 2.0 that are "good enough to be considered usable" we start committing and pushing to encourage people to fill in the holes, otherwise we set iCatcher as the default (so we can work out any kinks in default theme functionality in general) and commit those Cabbie 2.0s that we do have, and then set it as default once the holes are all filled in, at that point?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 12:18:56 AM
Llorean has spoken! Let's get started, folks! I might do the iPod Video version, as well.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 09, 2007, 01:35:22 AM
I have finished the Gigabeat port for now. I still plan on adding more info to the wps when no album art is displayed, but I am satisfied with how it came out. I am glad I finally stepped up to help out. ;D

I have posted it to the wps gallery here: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsGigabeatF#Cabbie_2_0

P.S. I'm still open to suggestions for changing anything else around, i.e. the status icons?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: evilnick on December 09, 2007, 04:18:30 AM
kperri, I've tried out your Gigabeat version of this (fantastic looking) wps and had a couple of issues:

1) The bitmap folder isn't named correctly, it needs to be identical to the wps filename, so I had to change this manually.
2) The album art seemed to be a few pixels too far down, so that it cut off the Artistname line, I changed this to: "%Cl|45|31|sc150|sc150|" and that seemed better.

Thanks for the port though (didn't want to seem ungrateful).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 09, 2007, 07:34:38 AM
marcguay and kperri, I think the next song info looks better when it's centered with no album art displayed.
Kperri, your now playing bar looks blurry.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: NicolasP on December 09, 2007, 07:36:13 AM
Maybe a wiki page could be made to provide an overview of the different versions and the targets that are still in need of a port?

kperri: The Gigabeat version when there is album art looks a bit too cluttered to me, especially the next song info. I think maybe it would be better to lose the codec information line and maybe make the album art a bit smaller to give it a little more air. Also the "now playing" bar looks blurred, did you upscale a smaller version?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 09, 2007, 08:12:24 AM
I made new backdrops and a progressbar for your port, keith:
http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/forumpics/gigabeat.zip
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: frause on December 09, 2007, 09:08:17 AM
I mucked around with the e200 port a bit. Here's what I came up with:

Smaller album art. 110x110 -- I thought the progressbar and "status bar" were a little bit to close to each other, especially without AA. Don't know if there exist some kind of standard size for AA...

Centered 'Next' bar. Next track info alternating between artist and track.

Twice as many volume levels. Also a new red indicator for volume over 0.
 
Slightly larger Rockbox logo. -- Just because...

***Edit***
Corrected typo in the theme config.

http://stealthberry.dyndns.org/stuff/Cabbie2-e200.zip
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 09, 2007, 09:39:15 AM
looking good. thumbs up!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 09, 2007, 11:16:27 AM
Thanks for the files. I'll take your ideas and comments in consideration for my next update! It might take a while though, I have exams this week  :-\, so whenever I have free time.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 09, 2007, 11:47:10 AM

marcguay and kperri, I think the next song info looks better when it's centered with no album art displayed.
Kperri, your now playing bar looks blurry.



I didn't do that, someone changed my stuff up (and made the album art smaller as well).  I think it looks worse now, this is my first experience with the "joy" of open-source.


---

Also, for everyone contributing, I think we should agree on some standards for asthetics and information; the themes are starting to vary quite a bit based on what seems like different individuals' personal taste.  

Originally it was:

Artist
Title
Album

Next:
Title

Progress Bar
Times

...and now we have people throwing in track numbers and file types and all kinds of stuff that diverges from the original concept (and tends to clutter up the look of it).  Even something like alternating sublines should be agreed upon so that they all fit the same mold.  Remember that you're not making these themes for yourself, you're making them for the Rockbox default.

 
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 09, 2007, 11:54:19 AM
I take blame/responsibility for cleaning up the code for Marc Guay's port to the X5 and H10 20GB, however the only changes to his work that I made were removing the status icons from the backdrop and fixing the positioning of the icons in the WPS code so they were located on the screen, as well as adjusting the margin for the next track info when art was displayed since IMO it seemed a bit odd to have it out of line with the current track's info.  Everything else is exactly as Marc had written it.  Also, the album art I have is 50x50 pixels but the code still looks for art at 56x56 pixels first, I was just lazy and left it to center my already existing cover.bmp. I included the note so people knew that the code looks for 56x56 art and that mine was smaller.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 09, 2007, 12:00:36 PM

Maybe a wiki page could be made to provide an overview of the different versions and the targets that are still in need of a port?


I think that's a good idea, it would help to see them all next to each other.


@karashata:  Sorry about the misunderstanding there, and thanks for fixing my mess up with leaving the icons on the backdrop and forgetting to change the second margin.  
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 09, 2007, 12:08:38 PM
Here are some updated screen shots for the Gigabeat port, before I upload them to the gallery. Anything else that should be changed, tell me now and I will make the fix.

I shrunk the Album Art to 140x140 and removed file info while the Album Art was displayed as suggested. The next song info is center, but still alternating while AA is displayed, but when it is not, it is moved above the progress bar and Artist and Title are on separate lines.

I also agree that there should be some sort of guidelines for the theme, but I hate to see wasted space in some of the ports with larger screen sizes, i.e. Gigabeat. That's why I add some file info, to fill in space, but still have enough breathing room.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 09, 2007, 12:11:02 PM
@ Marc: No problem at all!  Feel free to update the images if you prefer to have something with the proper 56x56 art being displayed (and don't forget to remove my note about being lazy if ya do!)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 09, 2007, 12:54:15 PM

Maybe a wiki page could be made to provide an overview of the different versions and the targets that are still in need of a port?


Anybody that is registered to the wiki and has write privileges can create a wiki page. You just have to come up with a name.  DefaultWPS sound good enough?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 12:56:06 PM
Well, my nano version is completely finished and done to the best of my ability. I personally think it's quite well done. Here are some screendumps and the final link (after this, I won't be doing anything for it, I'm done with it, it has to be further optimized by others).

There is also a .psd (kind of sloppily done) for the wps screen included.

http://rapidshare.com/files/75426510/Cabbie2.0DefaultNanoFinished.zip.html

Please check it out and make sure it's working properly and then I will put it onto the wiki.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: fasmaie on December 09, 2007, 02:55:25 PM
Hey,
I got a chance to see what's being going on WRT the Cabbie (putative) default theme conversion.

While I wrote the original theme, the logo was made by someone else (perl|work). He used to frequent the RockBox Gigabeat IRC channel a lot, but not lately. While I think the muted official logo works, it would be nice to get in touch with him (though that may be impossible) and see if he's willing to help us out.

Anyway, I am really impressed with Cabbie 2.0. It looks great.

I had hoped to help out with the ports, but I have found myself unable to do so. I apologize for that (new job, new challenges). You guys are doing a great job on your own, anyway.

I will have the last couple of weeks of this year free, and could work on a couple of targets, if that is desired. It would be nice if whoever has taken point on this tells me what to work on.

Again, great job guys!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 03:08:53 PM
I will also be doing an iPod Video version that will be done by next weekend. Also, I think it will be a good idea to have a wiki page for this so that we can keep track of what needs to be done. Can you take care of this, Llorean?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 03:12:56 PM
One important thing that's missing is actually Playlist Position. I use my device for audiobooks frequently, and playlist position is far more important to me than just about anything else on the screen. (Or track number, but that's less useful in a generalized sense).

And as was said earlier in the thread, anyone can create a wiki page. I've got plenty of things to spend my time on already, as it stands.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 03:17:29 PM
Playlist position is the "x of x" thing, right? You can easily add that in to any alternating subline, and my nano port already has it and most other should, too.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 03:30:08 PM
Alternating sublines require you to sit and wait for the information. It seems to me they should be used primarily for "unimportant" things.

For example, why do we need "Codec" at all? What relevance does it actually have, or usefulness?

My point is that if we're going to boil down to what information "defines" this WPS, so that cross-target ones can maintain it, maybe some discussion needs to take place as to what's important to display.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 09, 2007, 03:46:41 PM
Personally, I think a good selection of must-haves are:

- the current track's artist, album, and title
- playback time (current time and either time remaining or total track length)
- a graphical progress indicator
- graphical status icons for playback state, repeat, and shuffle
- a graphical battery indicator

Some nice things to add, space willing (or on alternating sublines if space is limited and the info is desired):

- playlist position
- next track information (at least title, then artist, then album)
- codec information (bitrate and codec type)
- real-time clock (current time, I prefer 12-hour format personally)

Keep in mind these are *my* preferences, and probably do *not* reflect the vast majority...  That said, the Cabbie 2.0 port has everything I find absolutely necessary, but if space permitted it would be nice to have a playlist position indicator.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 03:54:23 PM
Why is playback state needed at all? If the headphones are on, and you can see the WPS, you can tell if it's playing or paused just fine with your ears.

Specifically, why does that rate higher than Playlist position, which isn't as apparent?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 09, 2007, 04:02:31 PM
You have a point there, but the icon for indicating playback state generally ends up fairly small anyway, as well as tucked at the top or bottom of the screen along with the other status icons. Getting rid of it probably wouldn't make space enough for any sort of playlist indicator.  Besides, having a visual indication of playback state along with the shuffle and repeat states just makes things seem more complete, IMO.  As I said, those are my preferences and probably don't reflect how most people feel.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 04:03:44 PM
Honestly, I'm not sure the "Rockbox" logo is necessary. It's nice, but I'd rather pick something functional over it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 09, 2007, 04:13:44 PM
I can agree with you on that one, however, at least on the port to my player (the H10 20GB and iAudio X5 port) that logo is already removed to fit the status icons.  The only way I could see gaining some space to fit a playlist indication of any sort on that port would be to lose the line separating the current track's info from the next track's title and slipping it at the top of the screen as the first line below the Now Playing graphic, removing that graphic in favor of more space for information, or using a smaller font.  I'm not about to take liberty to make any alterations myself other than fixing bugs, however, since I didn't make the initial port.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: fasmaie on December 09, 2007, 04:14:25 PM
I agree that the logo should probably give way to something more functional.

I like the idea of play state being retained, as sometimes you may forget to turn off the player, or pause it and then you'd have to put the headphones to an ear to check play state.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 09, 2007, 04:17:12 PM
Although I never listen to audiobooks, I think the playlist position is a useful bit of information. It could sit beneath the progress bar, centred, in the position which is blank in some ports, and has the codec info in other ports.

IMHO fields like codec, bitrate, etc are best left to the Context menu.

I'm more for the logo than against it, unless someone comes up with a specific "must-have" field that can't be accomodated elsewhere.


Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 04:18:34 PM
"Is the playback time moving? No: Paused"

Seriously, Play/Pause state is perhaps the least useful information on there, considering the number of other pieces of information available as a user that let you know if you're paused or playing. The only time you wouldn't know is if your memory isn't good enough, or if something's buggy, and then considering we have both "Time Elapsed" and "Time Remaining" and a progress bar visible, you know if playback is happening.

That being said, I'd sacrifice next track information entirely for current playlist position (again, personal preference) because I actually make use of it on a regular basis (approximating how long the book remaining is, etc) while next track isn't, to me, functionally useful, merely nice to know.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on December 09, 2007, 04:22:43 PM
Not to be a party pooper - for this WPS is shaping up...
1 - Playlist position is also important to me.
2 - I feel one of the strengths of the original Cabbie theme was its combined use of the "Now Playing" bar as both a static element, and the progress bar - making very effective use of limited space on the screen.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: fasmaie on December 09, 2007, 04:24:20 PM
I agree with you on both points.

The question is, what would replace the play state? What information would fit in its place? If there is nothing important that can supplant it, then perhaps it should be kept in.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 04:25:47 PM
Well, first I'd sacrifice the graphical volume for numerical volume, since again, functionality is kinda nice to have. Graphical volume provides no objectively useful information.

This begins to free up more space, too.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 09, 2007, 04:25:56 PM
I think we need to keep in mind here that the point is not to create a theme that everyone will love and use, but to present a more pleasing welcome wagon to new users before they find or create one that suits them better.  Again, we're not aiming for perfection here, but a unified and pleasant, "Welcome!".  

Oh, and I created the wiki page and set up the sections.  Fill 'er up!

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DefaultWPS

(Afterthought: It might be nice if people included the graphics files as well as .zip files and screenshots for future modifications).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: fasmaie on December 09, 2007, 04:30:52 PM
MarcGuay -
That's a good point.

A theme to make new users feel comfortable may supersede bare functionality.

Still, in the smaller targets some allowances for screen real estate will have to be made.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 09, 2007, 04:31:31 PM
Well said!

If we start stripping too much out, we'll end up with a non-graphical WPS
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 04:34:01 PM
I think that it is absolutely possible to maintain key functionalities (objective volume, for one) without sacrificing comfort.

The theme needs to be representative of what Rockbox *can* do, as well. Which means it should show as much useful functionality as possible where it doesn't cause harm to the overall effect.

I never said it should be non-graphical, but when Graphics take away information for the sake of eye-candy, that's a very non-Rockbox sentiment. So we very definitely shouldn't be sacrificing useful information just for the sake of shininess.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 09, 2007, 04:40:27 PM
Seems to me like this conversation should have happened about a week ago.  

So does someone want to play dictator and decide what elements *must* be included or are we going to talk and talk until the topic grows cold and nobody actually *does* anything anymore?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 04:48:26 PM
I said, in my original post,
Quote

3) The idea is for Rockbox to have an intuitive interface that shows it off. Try to keep it mostly simple, but 'pretty' (as you see fit). That being said, if you feel some complexity helps show it off, go ahead, but the overall feel is that if it's too cluttered to be easily readable, that's frustrating.

4) It should load quickly. Try to use as FEW individual images as possible to get your point across. Each extra file adds to load time. We want this to put forth the best foot possible. Increasing the boot time doesn't do this.


Note the "shows it off" and the "as FEW individual images as possible" bits.

Keeping it to the Rockbox general intent of "Functionality comes first, and while pretty would be nice we shouldn't sacrifice things for it" seemed obvious to me, but I perhaps should've mentioned it. There's no sense having a WPS that's misleading or doesn't represent the general ideas behind the software itself.

That being said, how can one person be the dictator? It's not like one person is going to decide whether the theme is accepted or not. I've stated what I feel are conditions for acceptance among the majority of devs, based on points they all argued when debating other themes, in the original post.

Later I've said things that I feel are essential in a theme, personally, these were more specific things rather than generalizations because these are things important to me. All it means if they aren't in a theme is that it probably won't get my vote, not that it'll certainly be rejected.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: fasmaie on December 09, 2007, 04:51:25 PM
MarcGuay

How about doing this democratically, and having a poll on the wiki page.

The optional things would be:
Playlist position
Album art (on supporting targets)
Graphical volume
Graphical battery
Play status
Logo

Any others?

I don't use all these myself, but the graphical targets should be configured by default to show off what RockBox can do.

just my $0.02

EDIT - Run it for a week. Then use the options chosen.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 04:59:34 PM
I don't understand. What happened to the wiki page? It looks all... messed up. Can someone fix what happened?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 09, 2007, 05:03:01 PM

How about doing this democratically, and having a poll on the wiki page.

Maybe (also?) start said poll here in an own "Cabbie 2.0" thread in the forums?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 05:11:27 PM
A c200 version has been started as well (if I remember correctly) and that should be added to the wiki page, too. Also, what about the gigabeat version?

EDIT: I should probably hold my horses, the wiki page is still being made at the moment...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 09, 2007, 05:22:42 PM
I think the playback status is useful. It can be a good indicator wether rockbox has crashed or not ;)
As for numerical volume: I consciously dropped the numerical indicators in favour of  more fancy looking icons, so that all indicators feature the same design (style wins over substance - bad approach, I know). The volume indicator won't tell anything about the absolute volume as long as you're not using replay gain, anyway.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 09, 2007, 05:23:10 PM
I think the wiki page is about as cleaned up and complete as I can get it, though I would like to ask the person who uploaded the Nano theme there to please move it to the Nano's WPS gallery page and I'll make a link to the images and the place on the gallery page in the DefaultWPS wiki page, for the sake of consistency.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 05:27:47 PM
It's not absolute volume: that's dependent on headphones, external amp, etc.

It's about specific relative volume. If I know -20db is as loud as I should be going, then even in a loud environment I'll stop at -20 even if I can't hear the audio as well. Or I'll at least be cautious going over it.

As well, setting the volume for playback in my car is best at -12db with my audio replaygained. The tape adapter may or may not distort after this, varying by song, and of course the higher I go the more likely I'll get distortion but -12 is in my experimentation an absolute maximum that distortion will occur at. So I need to, again, know the exact level I'm at.

The list of instances where having a precise, instead of approximate, volume indicator can be extrapolated from this, but of course the benefit isn't obvious unless you actually have uses for it.

So please, don't tell me "it doesn't tell you anything absolute" just because you don't use it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 05:32:34 PM
Sorry about linking oddly on the page. I will upload it to the wiki right now. I also added in the c200 version (which doesn't have a wiki page) so it will have to be attached, correct?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 09, 2007, 05:36:23 PM
Now, that car adaptor thing is a very useful application... too bad I don't have a car  ;D
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 09, 2007, 05:36:38 PM
Fair enough, at last check the devs wanted to hold off on making a c200 gallery until they got the official themes site up.

BTW, does the c200 theme not display art?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 09, 2007, 05:48:00 PM
Got a question about the wiki page:

There are 2 lcd-remotes, either are used by two targets with different display specifications (M5 and X5 use the same remote but the former also has a greyscale main display - the H1x0s and H3x0s have the same remote with different size and colour depth main displays).

Because of this, I'd like the remote screens to appear on their own in the list, but this means to split the X5 port info and the RWPSs are currently not independent from the main WPS because you have to use the same font in both. Possibly it's not a problem if properly linked... but are there objections or better ideas?

Edit: (1) Taking the possibility to remind about the RWPSs. (2) A bit of clarification, I hope.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 05:55:13 PM
It was decided that it was not posssible. Of course, we could implement tiny (30 by 30?) album art if the user wants to use it. It can't do any harm, can it?

And by the way, here's the uploaded Cabbie 2.0 theme for the nano on the actual wiki page. You can go ahead and delete the attached images and zip file on the defaultwps page.

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIpodNano#Cabbie_2_0_for_nano

EDIT: I already modded the source of the wiki page to point to the ipod nano wps page (images and zip), so all someone needs to do is delete the ones attached to the defaultwps wiki page.

And by the way, great work everyone!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on December 09, 2007, 05:55:41 PM
I think that unless someone really wants to work on the the RWPSes, putting them off until after the main commit would be a good idea.   I'd hate to delay the main WPS changes waiting on the RWPS anyway.

Also, I just had a look at the Wiki page.  Those results look fantastic.  Great work everyone.

Edit:  Opps, looks like I misread.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 09, 2007, 05:58:48 PM
@ crzyboyster:  I can't delete files, can someone bump someone with enough permissions to come by and clean those off?  I'll fix the links to the images and the place in the gallery ASAP.

Also, about the c200 and AA:  Makes sense not to impliment AA support, it's probably not worth it in the end, would be too cluttered.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 06:00:20 PM
I already modded the source of the wiki page to point to the ipod nano wps page (images and zip), so all someone needs to do is delete the ones attached to the defaultwps wiki page.

And by the way, great work everyone!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 09, 2007, 06:04:28 PM
I noticed when I went to edit that.  Also, I swapped the order of your AA and non-AA images to match with the rest.  Otherwise, I think all that's left is for people to finish the few ports we need made.

BTW, did anyone else notice that the screen sizes seem to go in order from largest to smallest (excepting the Sansa c200 and the iriver H10 5/6GB)?  Was that intentional or purposely done?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 09, 2007, 06:05:11 PM
something that just came to my mind: changing to numeric volume display ain't easy. We can't put the volume indicator in line with the other indicators on most ports since it can only be positioned on a text line. This would mean redesigning most, if not all of the ports we just did.
As an alternative we coud find alternative places for the volume indicators - though none would make as much sense as putting them beneath the other indicator icons.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 06:10:32 PM
I think we need someone like senab to do the remaining (and very crucial) ipod 5g port. I will do it, but their results will probably come out better.  I mean, we need a good ipod 5g port as we have SO many ipod video users out there (the overwhelming majority). What do you guys think?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: fasmaie on December 09, 2007, 06:13:48 PM
Has the larger (>100 x 100 ) album art been decided on already?

It seems to me that having smaller album art, with a constant NEXT artist/song would be a better use of screen space.

I don't want to start a debate if this has already been decided on.

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 09, 2007, 06:14:30 PM
I hate really telling people what should be on the wiki because I could edit it but one thing that I think should be on the DefaultWPS  page is  a list of things that you guys want on the theme and what should not change a sort of "guidelines" if you want to call it. I only say this because I dont know what you devs and artists want. Also it seems that you guys don't want the rockbox logo on the wps. Would you want to keep it on the backdrop?
EDIT: crzyboyster Your avatar drives me nuts when i see it in the corner of my eye  
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 06:15:33 PM
I guess that we've been deciding the album art by what size would suit the port. I myself used 65 x 65 album art for the nano port, which fits just about perfectly and that size has been used in other themes as well. I guess it all depends...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 09, 2007, 06:16:39 PM
I'm just adding links to images and gallery pages for the ports that have them, and cleaning up mistakes that happen when two or more people try to edit the page all at once...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 06:26:09 PM
Let's just reflect on this, ZincAlloy first "submitted" this theme onto this thread on December 03, 2007. Today is December 09, 2007. We spanned 11 pages of forum posts and are done with the majority of the ports of the theme. We have come a long way, folks!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 09, 2007, 06:52:32 PM
I've just noticed a small bug in the Next track tag used when there is no album art. %fn is used and of course it should be %Fn. This is probably in ZincAlloy's code, and probably in others who copied it (like me).

I've fixed the greyscale version (and added a playlist indicator):
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIriverH100#MarkFawcus
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 09, 2007, 06:53:32 PM
Updated the h300 version:

(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIriverH300/cabbie2.1.8.png)

displays playlist position now.

edit: fixed the %fn part as well. thank you, yapper!

whoops.. but messed up the backdrop when fixing a minor graphic error on the progress bar.

.... ok. fixed.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 07:29:42 PM
Sorry, I can no longer help with porting this this theme to the iPod Video  :(
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 09, 2007, 08:49:11 PM
here's some graphics for the ipod video for a start. maybe somebody else with an ipod video or windows can help out (sorry, but I'm on a mac and can't run the simulator :()

http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/formpics/ipodvideo.psd
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 08:52:02 PM
The simulators should compile and work on the mac just fine.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 09, 2007, 09:15:53 PM
One possible way to include a numeric volume indication without drastically altering the design would be to alternate the playlist position and the volume, centred beneath the progress bar, e.g.:

Code: [Select]
%al %pc%ac%pp of %pe%ar%pr ;%al %pc%ac%pvdB%ar%pr
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 09, 2007, 09:25:54 PM
Why not alternate the "Repeat" and "Shuffle" icons to free up more space then? Maybe even "Repeat" "Shuffle" and "Play/Pause"? Surely these three, unlike volume, represent things that a user doesn't need explicit feedback on. Changing Shuffle and Repeat modes is done via a menu that shows you your option, so you know what you've set it to anyway at the time, and don't need precise details or fine grained adjustment. And Play/Pause you can hear, as i said before.

Meanwhile with volume, especially with controls like the scrollwheel rather than discrete controls like the buttons on the side of the Gigabeat, it could be quite frustrating to have the explicit volume display disappear every few seconds.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 09, 2007, 09:26:17 PM
Well, some people don't approve of alternating sublines, but of course, you could potentially squeeze anything into an alternating subline.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 09, 2007, 09:41:18 PM
Freeing up space isn't the real problem, more that the numeric volume is restricted to appearing on one of the "text lines", rather than being a graphic. The graphics on the greyscale port use what would equate to text lines 10 and 10.5.  I briefly experimented with dropping the numeric volume in the space currently occupied by the graphic volume, but it sits too high. Of course, altering the font size might allow a better fit, but would also mean other correction being needed.

Another alternative is to leave the volume as a graphic, and use the Context menu to access the Volume menu in all it's numeric glory when a precise volume setting is needed.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LambdaCalculus379 on December 09, 2007, 09:43:24 PM
Just tried the Cabbie theme on my c240... looks really nice! Great work, guys!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on December 09, 2007, 09:44:04 PM

I think we need someone like senab to do the remaining (and very crucial) ipod 5g port. I will do it, but their results will probably come out better.  I mean, we need a good ipod 5g port as we have SO many ipod video users out there (the overwhelming majority). What do you guys think?


I don't see why.  I did the original Cabbie port to the Video and its not very hard.  Its just the gigabeat with the screen rotated 90 degrees, so you just need to rearrange things.  If no one gets a chance, it'll do it next week when I have some free time.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 09, 2007, 10:20:18 PM
Just curious at what happened to people wanting the Cabbie theme to be the default? Not enough support and this one is more "flashy"? Its nice having two or more players in front of you looking at the same theme.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 02:32:21 AM
Judging by the massive feedback, enthusiasm and number of ports caused by Cabbie 2.0 - yes. Just look how far we have come in just one week.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on December 10, 2007, 02:33:20 AM

I think we need someone like senab to do the remaining (and very crucial) ipod 5g port. I will do it, but their results will probably come out better.  I mean, we need a good ipod 5g port as we have SO many ipod video users out there (the overwhelming majority). What do you guys think?


Also, senab stated in another post somewhere recently that he's not interested in licensing his work as Creative Commons. Personally that means to me he should be the last person contributing to this if it's going to make it as the default Rockbox theme. I respect his decision to use whatever license he likes of course - but having a non-CC licensed theme as the default in Rockbox is just plain wrong in my opinion.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 02:38:24 AM

I don't see why.  I did the original Cabbie port to the Video and its not very hard.  Its just the gigabeat with the screen rotated 90 degrees, so you just need to rearrange things.  If no one gets a chance, it'll do it next week when I have some free time.


Shouldn't be much work now, I've already arranged the graphics.
I'll see if I can manage to compile a simulator for mac, though...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: bascule on December 10, 2007, 03:52:04 AM

Also, senab stated in another post somewhere recently that he's not interested in licensing his work as Creative Commons.


Not quite true, it's really his original work for his 'Slant' themes that he is protecting.

I totally understand and respect that. From my point of view though, releasing the source images for my theme Slant is out of the question. This is because the 'graphical identity' from it has been incorporated into other things (eg. current uni work) and it needs to remain mine. I will probably change that (and indeed the license) when the work has been marked and released from Uni.



Personally that means to me he should be the last person contributing to this if it's going to make it as the default Rockbox theme.


I think that's a bit harsh. As it is well-known that the default theme will be under some sort of an open licence, senab can make his own mind up as to whether to contribute or not; his involvement won't automatically make the default theme closed and I'm sure the theme would benefit from further high quality artistic input.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on December 10, 2007, 04:00:46 AM
Ah - I take it back then. Sorry senab ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LinusN on December 10, 2007, 05:16:17 AM
I think the font (and the graphics too) is a little too small on the Gigabeat. Could we try with a larger font?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 08:51:51 AM


Shouldn't be much work now, I've already arranged the graphics.
I'll see if I can manage to compile a simulator for mac, though...


I tried to install svn, but can't get it to work  - too bad.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lazka on December 10, 2007, 12:27:22 PM
hm.. yeah. I'm sorry I didn't pay much attention to the license when i made the icon theme.. i guess it has to be redone anyway..

btw.. here is a little bash script that generates albumart like the one in the wiki but with a nice border and rounded corners.

http://pastebin.ca/811147
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 12:33:13 PM
ok, this will need some work:
http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/forumpics/cabbedefipodvid.zip

the graphics should be working, but I couldn't place the text without the simulator. maybe it will need a slightly larger font.
I hope the bar positions will work. album art is 120x120, btw...  whoops, forgot to adapt the album art position: it's 16x34y
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 10, 2007, 03:09:46 PM

I think the font (and the graphics too) is a little too small on the Gigabeat. Could we try with a larger font?


I agree and maybe a bold font also?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 03:18:06 PM
Keith, I realized I forgot the shadows under the Now Playing and progress bars. I'm so sorry. Here's the updated files:
http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/forumpics/gigabeat.zip
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 10, 2007, 04:28:36 PM
I noticed that a lot of ports for this theme have just been updated. What was the major code change?


I've just noticed a small bug in the Next track tag used when there is no album art. %fn is used and of course it should be %Fn. This is probably in ZincAlloy's code, and probably in others who copied it (like me).

I've fixed the greyscale version (and added a playlist indicator):
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIriverH100#MarkFawcus


I checked my code but I don't know if this issue applies... Can anyone check my code and tell me if mine also has that bug and then tell me what code I should change?

And if you're wondering why I can't do this myself, it's because I'm better at designing wps's then coding them....

Help would be appreciated:

Quote
# cabbie 2.0 default
# (C) 2007, Johannes Voggenthaler (Zinc Alloy)
#derived from "cabbie" (C) Yohann Misquitta
#Ported to nano by crzyboyster
%wd
%P|pb.bmp|
%X|wpsbackdrop.bmp|0|0|
%xl|A|lockclosed.bmp|67|116|
%xl|B|lockopen.bmp|67|116|
%xl|C|battpl.bmp|85|117|
%xl|D|battch.bmp|85|117|
%xl|E|batt00.bmp|85|117|
%xl|F|batt01.bmp|85|117|
%xl|G|batt02.bmp|85|117|
%xl|H|batt03.bmp|85|117|
%xl|I|batt04.bmp|85|117|
%xl|J|batt05.bmp|85|117|
%xl|K|batt06.bmp|85|117|
%xl|L|batt07.bmp|85|117|
%xl|M|vol0.bmp|103|117|
%xl|N|vol1.bmp|103|117|
%xl|O|vol2.bmp|103|117|
%xl|o|vol3.bmp|103|117|
%xl|P|vol4.bmp|103|117|
%xl|Q|shuffle.bmp|120|117|
%xl|R|repeatall.bmp|139|113|
%xl|S|repeatone.bmp|139|113|
%xl|T|repeatshuffle.bmp|139|113|
%xl|U|repeatab.bmp|139|113|
%xl|V|stop.bmp|156|115|
%xl|W|play.bmp|156|115|
%xl|X|pause.bmp|156|115|
%xl|Y|ff.bmp|156|115|
%xl|Z|rew.bmp|156|115|
%Cl|10|16|s65|s65|
%pb|5|7|169|88|
#NowPlaying
%?C<%s%m|80|%al%?it<%it|%fn>|%s%ac%?it<%it|%fn>>
%?C<%s%m|80|%al%?ia<%ia|%?d2<%d2|(root)>>|%s%ac%?ia<%ia|%?d2<%d2|(root)>>>
%?C<%s%m|80|%al%?id<%id|%?d1<%d1|(root)>>|%s%ac%?id<%id|%?d1<%d1|(root)>>>

%?C<%m|80||%ac>%t4Next Song:
%?C<%m|80||%ac>%s%t4%It;%?C<%m|80||%ac>%s%t4%Id;%?C<%m|80||%ac>%s%t3%Ia

%t2.5%al   %pc%ac%fc%ar%pr  ;%t2.5%al   %pc%ac%pc%ac%pp of %pe%ar%pr%ar%pr  ;%t2.5%al   %pc%ac%fb kbps%fv%ar%pr  
%?mh<%xdA|%xdB>
%?bp<%?bc<%xdD|%xdC>|%?bl<|%xdE|%xdF|%xdG|%xdH|%xdI|%xdJ|%xdK|%xdL>>
%?pv<%xdM|%xdN|%xdO|%xdo|%xdP>%?ps<%xdQ>
%?mm<|%xdR|%xdS|%xdT|%xdU>
%?mp<%xdV|%xdW|%xdX|%xdY|%xdZ>%?C<%C>


Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 04:53:12 PM
no, you've got a completely new "next song" code.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 10, 2007, 05:04:07 PM
Sweet! Another thing, though, with your h300 version, you should relocate the shuffle and repeat icons all the way to the left. I will be doing this as well so that there's no gaping hole in the middle.

(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIriverH300/cabbie2.1.8.png)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 10, 2007, 05:04:19 PM

I noticed that a lot of ports for this theme have just been updated. What was the major code change?

The big change in the wiki was not caused by an update of the themes themselves just by me reordering the page a bit because:

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 05:11:57 PM

Sweet! Another thing, though, with your h300 version, you should relocate the shuffle and repeat icons all the way to the left. I will be doing this as well so that there's no gaping hole in the middle.

(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIriverH300/cabbie2.1.8.png)


personally I like the placement of the icons as is.
I will do something about the gaps, though.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 10, 2007, 05:19:12 PM
The discussion about the code above reminded me that the question about the different features, information, alternating sublines or not or order of the status icons at the bottom still is not discussed.

I think that all should be in line - at least elements that appear in all screens should be the same (order of status icons are a good example). I'm not talking about additional information that can be put into bigger screens or the one or the other exception to the rule if there is a good reason - but it should look as if it was done by one person in the end (in my opinion).

The suggestion was to also use the wiki page to discuss this and my additional suggestion was to start an own "Cabbie 2.0" thread here. Don't you think?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 05:27:21 PM
I don't think we need a new thread for this. Imho discussion will be easier with only one thread to follow.




introduced two new icons:

(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIriverH300/cabbie2.1.8.png)

basically they're the old icons treated the same way as the progress bar background. opacity is set to 44%.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 10, 2007, 06:12:47 PM
Thanks for the fixed graphics ZincAlloy. Is there any way you could also provide me with larger status icons, as previously suggested. I'm not that great with Photoshop or I'd do it myself. Thanks again. I'm also thinking of making the next version with larger fonts. Could anyone give me an idea of which one to use?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 06:33:06 PM
You could try to use helvr12, which is a larger version of the one we're currently using.

you can find all the original graphics here: http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/forumpics/cabbie2graphics.zip

simply drag and drop the icons (or even folders of iconsets) from the icons.psd to your gigabeat.psd file and resize them until they fit to make a layout.

I'm afraid you won't be able to make them much better, though.

If you don't get it working with photoshop you might be able to use the icons from the unfinished ipod video port I've started (http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/forumpics/cabbiedefipodvid.zip)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 10, 2007, 06:36:13 PM
ZincAlloy, the new icons thing is not a good idea because in order "to keep the same feel of the theme on all targets", we would all need to reupdate your themes do that it looks like that. I am not willing to do that at all. What do other people think about this? And also, are the new icons included in the .psd for the theme?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 06:40:45 PM
yes, forgot to mention. they are included in the new psd file set.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 10, 2007, 06:41:30 PM

...it should look as if it was done by one person in the end (in my opinion).


I agree.  Keeping it uniform is nice.

Quote
The suggestion was to also use the wiki page to discuss this and my additional suggestion was to start an own "Cabbie 2.0" thread here. Don't you think?


Using the wiki is a good idea, it would, if used properly, allow information to be organized better.

@ZincAlloy - I like the fade-to-grey icons in place of no-icons, good idea.  I figure once the theme has been adapted to all the players there's going to be a few rounds of combing over to get everything alligned.  (Which won't be any fun and I'm not volunteering.)  :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 10, 2007, 06:42:38 PM
I am currently using helvr12, but apparently it still isn't large enough. I'm thinking of using the Unifont font. It's slightly bigger and I don't have to move anything around. Thanks for the icon idea.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 06:43:04 PM
in the end it will be worth the effort.


I am currently using helvr12, but apparently it still isn't large enough. I'm thinking of using the Unifont font. It's slightly bigger and I don't have to move anything around. Thanks for the icon idea.

oh, wow. didn't look that large. I would recommend you to try out fonts until you find one that looks good and is easily readable.
or are there larger versions of helvr that we are allowed to use but aren't included in the fonts pack?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 10, 2007, 06:48:46 PM
check out http://rasher.dk/rockbox/fonts/
there are bigger sizes of helvR fonts as well as bold versions


EDIT: I guess I will have to include the newer icons into the nano port. I will also use 50x50 album art now (more standard).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 10, 2007, 07:03:57 PM
I added a little discussion area to the wiki for anyone who's interested, and also left To-Do lists next to my contributions.  If anyone takes care of any of the problems, please either delete them from the list or put a check-mark next to them.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 10, 2007, 07:05:24 PM
Can you guys try to follow the forum guidelines. Specifically the whole posting multiple times in a row thing? They're pretty unambiguous if you go and actually read them, and you agreed to follow them when registering.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 10, 2007, 07:08:09 PM
Well, I follow the rules, but I think someone like ZincAlloy doesn't!
I'm just kidding! ;D
But seriously, read the rules. The multiple post thing is with pretty much any forum.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 10, 2007, 07:17:37 PM
Here is the font I picked - Unifont. Do you all think it looks ok? I still need to fix the status icons, which I'm currently working on.

Edit: Nevermind, I found the right helvR14 font, it matches the ones we already use.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 07:26:30 PM
Well, I follow the rules, but I think someone like ZincAlloy doesn't!
I'm just kidding! ;D
But seriously, read the rules. The multiple post thing is with pretty much any forum.


In my opinion too much editing is confusing for readers.
(for the confused readers: I edited my posts above to remove serial posts)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 10, 2007, 07:28:40 PM
If nobody has responded, and you edit your post, and precede the edit by the word "Added:" or "Edit:", the fact that it shows up with (New) next to it in the list, and the obvious notation probably shouldn't confuse anyone.

Either way, we decided to do it this way for a reason, so please abide by our rules.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on December 10, 2007, 08:07:10 PM
Playing with the Sansa version, the font is pretty small.  Any reason we don't use helvr12 instead?  Theres plenty of dead space anyway:

(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsSansaE200/Cabbie2WPS.png)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 10, 2007, 08:27:27 PM
I updated my nano theme so that the icons underneath appear and i made the now playing bar bigger.

(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/viewfile/Main/WpsIpodNano?rev=2;filename=Cabbie2WPS-AANano.PNG)

(they don't appear in the screenshots, but they're there)

Comments would be nice
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 10, 2007, 08:29:04 PM
I just want to add. I think the date and time idea on the gigabeat is a great thing. Anybody think that this could go on the other cabbie2 wps ports?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Christine Tham on December 10, 2007, 08:38:13 PM
A suggestion in terms of font - can we ensure that whatever font we choose can support non-Latin characters? Ie. something like Unifont?

I'm thinking of specifically being able to display East Asian languages, ie. Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc.

Unifont seems to have the largest character set, but is a bit too small for me on the Gigabeat but possibly too large on the smaller displays.

My own WPSs are all based on Unifont. If cabbie2 becomes the new default theme, it would be good to ensure it supports non-Latin text.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 09:20:11 PM
I did a quick and dirty port of Marc Guay's rwps to the iriver remote. Unfortunately I don't have a display remote to test it on. Would anybody be so kind and check if it's working?
http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/forumpics/iriverrwps.zip


crzyboyster, I think the nano theme looked better with the smaller now playing bar. I have to admit it's easier to read, though.

psychomania, I don't think date and time would be a good idea on most targets. On the Gigabeat it works, because there's enough space on top. On the other targets it would look cluttered up.

Christine, you're right about Unifont being too large - apart from that I think it looks horrible on this theme (actually I can't remember any theme I liked it on).
What alternatives to Unifont do we have?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 10, 2007, 09:39:54 PM
OK, we have some serious issues here. I think that the porting effort needs to be stopped (or paused) for a couple of days while all of us can think up of what EVERY port has to have. We are all over the place! We need to finish this up and figure out what information should be displayed and how and what font should be used.

I think that unifont no longer remains an option as it's too small on larger displays and too big on smaller displays. We would also need to redo most of the themes to accomodate this change.

Once this theme is released, however, and made the default, people are welcome to do "remixes" and one can be made using the unifont font.

What do people think about all of this?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: zajacattack on December 10, 2007, 09:42:23 PM
Seems like a good plan. I'm really excited for this new default theme to come out!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 09:53:28 PM
If we use fonts that are the same size as the helvR fonts we will have a smooth drop in replacement without the hassle of rearranging everything, right?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 10, 2007, 09:57:38 PM
As long as the pixel heights match up, there shouldn't be any issues with changing fonts, though wider fonts may tighten things up a little under the progress bars, where the time elapsed/remaining and the playlist position on some targets, and possibly later all targets, is.

For the record, the helvR10 font is actually 12 pixels high, so it could be replaced with the nimbus-12 font or any other 12 pixel high font.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 10, 2007, 10:13:28 PM

Playing with the Sansa version, the font is pretty small.  Any reason we don't use helvr12 instead?


I considered this myself but thought maybe I was just getting old.  Not feeling super-motivated to do a full re-haul of the thing right now but I'll drop a note on the wiki for whoever has the energy... P.S. There's a lot less empty space when the album art is displayed, but it would still be possible to bump it up to 12.

---

As for the unicode discussion, I mentionned it before and I'll say it again:  I think it would be best to have a unicode font for the default theme.  Just because the website is in English doesn't mean that everybody speaks it or uses the same alphabet.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 10, 2007, 10:26:44 PM
I can agree with the unicode font idea, but we need to find a unicode font that would fit the current layouts, ie. a font that's the same height as the current fonts, otherwise we'll have to go through massive overhauls of the current ports to fit bigger fonts.

Also, the helvR12 font is actually 15 pixels high, so should we end up replacing the current fonts at a later time, that will need to be factored in.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 10, 2007, 10:38:12 PM
I've got a simulator running now. I'll put up the ipod video version later today.
Is anybody making ports for ipod 2G/mini, Iriver H10 5/6GB and the Archos at the moment?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 10, 2007, 11:53:38 PM
Here's my final version with the larger font and the icons back where they belong.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: terrence1019 on December 11, 2007, 12:42:16 AM
The font for the Sansa version definitely needs to be changed. It seems too sparse
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on December 11, 2007, 01:03:14 AM
Perhaps what is needed here is a scavenger hunt of a sort.
The original Cabbie theme had a font which was easy on the eyes, and I agree that unifont is (let us be frank) ugly.
That being said - in my humble opinion a default theme MUST use a font which supports as many non-latin character sets as possible, and SHOULD use the same font on all possible targets.

Back to the scavenger hunt:
one:  There are (plenty?) of open-source fonts floating around the web.
two:  We have the tools, gentlemen, (and ladies) to convert fonts for use in rockbox.
three:  ?
four:  PROFIT!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 11, 2007, 01:40:58 AM
After doing some searching for open source fonts, I found DejaVu. It looks like a good font to use.
Here is the link to the wiki: http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Edit: Here is an even better unicode font Titus/Bitstream Cyberbit found here:
http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/unicode/tituut.asp
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 11, 2007, 02:52:48 AM
DejaVu Sans is looking very promising.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: rosco_pc on December 11, 2007, 06:10:55 AM
The Titus font can not be used as is. Quote from the webpage:

Quote
I declare that I will be using the font for non-commercial purposes only and that I will not give it on to any third parties. I agree that any violation of these regulations will be prosecuted as an offense against existing laws:


This basically means that you can not re-distribute the font once you have downloaded it. Of course you can try talking to the author and get permission.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 11, 2007, 10:01:36 AM
Put the ipod video version up:
(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIpod5g/cabbieipodaa.png)


I have problems getting the backdrop to display on the iriver rwps. I double checked everything: name, file format, reference in rwps file, screen size. Everything seems fine to me. Any idea why it won't display? the progress bar is working perfectly.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 11, 2007, 10:02:54 AM
The iRiver remote is 1bpp, I don't see how you could have a backdrop when the only two color options are "Black" and "White".

Just use normal bitmaps.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lazka on December 11, 2007, 10:12:35 AM
imho the color of volume indicator should be more like the dark grey used for deactivated icons...
i can hardly tell what the volume is on my sansa because it mixes up with the yellow.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 11, 2007, 10:29:12 AM
good idea, I will fix the volume icons. I will have to make new ones anyway - 8 at least according to the wiki.


Iriver rwps is working now. Thank you, Llorean!

(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIriverH300/cabbierwps.png)

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 11, 2007, 12:23:51 PM
The font for the Sansa version definitely needs to be changed. It seems too sparse

I too agree that the font could be a bit heavier and I'd also like a font that comes in different sizes to adapt to different screens a bit better. Personally I'm in favour of the Nimbus font family as there is a Nimbus-12 which would make replacing the currently used font on most screens quite easy, Nimbus-10 is nice on my c200 and I found Nimbus-19 on a Video suitable too. Unfortunately it does not have asian characters but at least all of them have accented characters, greek, cyrillic and hebrew (see UnicodeFonts (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/UnicodeFonts)).

two:  We have the tools, gentlemen, (and ladies) to convert fonts for use in rockbox.

It depends on the font you find but most of them need a bit of editing for a nice result as you can't taka a clean convert for granted. So if you also want different sizes of the same font this probably means quite a bit of work unless we get very lucky and find one that just works, just in my experience though.


(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIriverH300/cabbierwps.png)

You should use the %x (lowercase!) for loading bitmaps statically, this is less code and cleaner. And I think the progressbar should have a "frame" like the standard progress bar would have - you could also make this frame a statical bitmap and the progress bar bitmap would be made of the "innards".

Speaking of monochrome WPS...
Is anybody making ports for ipod 2G/mini, Iriver H10 5/6GB and the Archos at the moment?

Actually I didn't want to but somehow I got an idea so I'll probably look into making the Archos version - guess I'm the only one lurking around here that has the possibility to test on target (and it will definitely look different from the sim) and already did some WPS for it, too.

By the way: there is a small H10 version, which reminds me... Looking at the collection of the WPS in the wiki, I get the impression that there are tiny differences in the yellowish that's used in the different colour screen themes, especially when I look at the Gigabeat version. The latter also has the shadow of the now playing bar in the lower left direction, all the others are to the (as far as I know) more natural lower right - will leave a note in the wiki too.

Edit: I remember now...it was about the number of volume indicator bitmaps. I'm all for grainier but would make the actual number dependent on the width of the icon (e.g. if it is 16 pixels wide in on screen, you could easily make it 9 different steps, starting with "all zero" - or 8 if that's not wanted). Something between 5 and 10 would be nice.

P.S.: Sorry for lengthy post.  8-)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 11, 2007, 12:45:21 PM
cool, now the rwps is working as intended! Thank you very much! Didn't know about statical bitmaps yet.
A new version is up now.

I didn't notice the shadow was wrong - my bad. I gave Keith the file.
Keith, you'll get an updated version with a correct shadow and a better proportioned logo later today.

I can't explain why there are differences in the yellow. I had the impression as well. It seems they come out differently at larger resolutions.

pixelma, there's no need to be sorry. quite the contrary. Thank you for this very helpful post.
Great to hear you're taking on the Archos task. This leaves only the ipod mini portless, but we cannot start to port without having decided which greyscale bar and icon design to use.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 11, 2007, 01:05:36 PM
I can't explain why there are differences in the yellow. I had the impression as well. It seems they come out differently at larger resolutions.

You may be right, probably it's only a "human eye and brain" effects. The same colours will seem different (1) in different quantities (like a wall compared to a small sample) and (2) with different colours in the surrounding (even the slight gradient in the background could be important).

I think that's ok then, just wanted it to be checked.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 11, 2007, 02:23:28 PM
Re: Font

I was initially very against using Nimbus but I just gave it another chance at 12pt on the Sansa e200 and it actually looks pretty good with the shiny yellows and the faded grey background.  If nothing else shows up as a worthy competitor I say we just roll with that.

One question though:  According to the UnicodeFonts wiki page, HelvR12 is actually more universal than Nimbus.  Does that mean that it would be easy to make smaller and larger versions of it or that somebody spent a ton of time perfecting that particular size?

Peace,
Marc
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lazka on December 11, 2007, 03:57:08 PM

After doing some searching for open source fonts, I found DejaVu. It looks like a good font to use.
Here is the link to the wiki: http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Edit: Here is an even better unicode font Titus/Bitstream Cyberbit found here:
http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/unicode/tituut.asp


I just made a dejavu rb font. I've tried to fix at least the first 200 characters.
not perfect, but hey, it's my first attempt :)

http://files.maturaball06.com/DejaVuSans.zip

(edit: i will post a cleaned up version before i go to bed
..ok done, my eyes hurt :-\ good night)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 11, 2007, 04:06:35 PM
VERY nice!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 11, 2007, 04:59:33 PM
The DejaVu Sans font is indeed very nice. I noted that the .psd source of the theme needs the 8 setting volume meter in it so that we can all put it into out ports. And atleast do it for your port!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 11, 2007, 05:18:47 PM
sure. I'm working on it right now. Will add the psd package to the wiki.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 11, 2007, 06:07:29 PM
I updated mine a bit. Made the now playing bar smaller, added 8 volume degrees and made the progress bar a LOT cleaner. Tell me what you think about this one.

(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/viewfile/Main/WpsIpodNano?rev=3;filename=Cabbie2WPS-AANano.PNG)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 11, 2007, 06:22:03 PM
nice.
two things that need fixing:
1. the direction of the now playing bar's shadow.
2. it should say "Next Track" instead of "Next Song"

iriver and ipod updates are up, btw. updated to "Next Track" and 8 step volume slider.
edit: the graphics package is available at the wiki now.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 11, 2007, 06:35:39 PM
Is it okay if I don't update it right now and update it with more fixes like 2 days later?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 11, 2007, 06:37:17 PM
for me it is.
don't forget to leave a note at the wiki.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 11, 2007, 06:40:05 PM
Well, look at this. We're practically done with all of the ports (except for the ipod mini and archos players). All we need to so is weed through the existing ports and update them to the final guidelines. So, Llorean (or any moderator in charge), do you think this theme can be committed by next week if all goes well?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Christine Tham on December 11, 2007, 07:10:20 PM
Just another quick note on the font issue. It's important to choose not just a Unicode font, but I personally think East Asian language support is desirable, so the Unicode font needs to support CJK (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) characters.

As an example, even though DejaVu is a Unicode font family, it does not support CJK.

Extract from the language coverage file for DejaVu:

ja     Japanese                                      (0/6538)           (0/6538)           (0/6538)    
ko     Korean                                        (0/2443)           (0/2443)           (0/2443)    
zh-cn  Chinese (simplified)                       0% (2/6765)        0% (2/6765)        0% (2/6765)    
zh-hk  Chinese Hong Kong Supplementary Character Set      (0/2213)           (0/2213)           (0/2213)    
zh-mo  Chinese in Macau                              (0/13063)          (0/13063)          (0/13063)    
zh-sg  Chinese in Singapore                       0% (2/6765)        0% (2/6765)        0% (2/6765)    
zh-tw  Chinese (traditional)                         (0/13063)          (0/13063)          (0/13063)    
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Angyman on December 11, 2007, 07:27:35 PM

...Is anybody making ports for ... iriver H10 5/6GB ... at the moment?


Yes... here's one guy working on that:
http://www.misticriver.net/forums/rockbox-h10-series/56970-default-theme-contest-cabbie-2-0-5-6gb-version.html
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 11, 2007, 09:42:07 PM
Re: Font

Not too sure if this would make things easier or harder but here it is:  What if instead of finding/creating the perfect font that supports every language, we created several versions of the default theme with the only difference being the font.  That way there could be, for example, "Rockbox Default (Latin & Cyrillic)", "Rockbox Default (Korean, Chinese & Japanese)", etc., listed in the themes menu on first usage.  Clearly not ideal but maybe an option to look into.  The only requirement would be that all of the fonts used are available in the appropriate sizes and of equal height to facilitate modifying the original ones.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 11, 2007, 09:52:59 PM
I edited the wiki so on the To-Do lists there is a table. It has check marks or exclamation points.  I thought this would be less confusing as before, which was:
Code: [Select]
*fixed
 8 step volume slider.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Christine Tham on December 11, 2007, 10:19:24 PM

Re: Font

Not too sure if this would make things easier or harder but here it is:  What if instead of finding/creating the perfect font that supports every language, we created several versions of the default theme with the only different being the font.


Maybe I am the only person doing this, but I listen to songs in Brazilian Portugese, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Spanish ... as well as English.

I like the tags to reflect the native language of the music. I don't pretend to understand all the lyrics, but I am currently studying Japanese and I know a bit of German and Italian (mainly from listening to operas, but I have studied some Italian).

So having several versions of the theme probably won't work for me. I do wish there was a better font than Unifont though - I am getting sick and tired of it. But it seems the only one that can handle everything.

Maybe just a Unifont version of the theme, and a non-Unifont (English only?) version?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 11, 2007, 10:36:49 PM

Maybe just a Unifont version of the theme, and a non-Unifont (English only?) version?


This is what they did with the "iCatcher" and "UniCatcher" themes. This is a good idea.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 12, 2007, 01:00:47 AM
Here is the final release version of the Gigabeat port. I added the 8 vol icons, changed to the bigger ipod video icons, removed the rockbox logo, and made an extra Unifont version for those who needed the Unicode font. I think nothing else needs to be done with this port.  ;) Checkout the screen shots below:
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 12, 2007, 02:56:22 AM


Maybe just a Unifont version of the theme, and a non-Unifont (English only?) version?


This is what they did with the "iCatcher" and "UniCatcher" themes. This is a good idea.


sure is. We will need a bit of rearranging, though. Some information might need to be compromised on several targets. Remember: Unifont is HUGE!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lazka on December 12, 2007, 04:36:47 AM
maybe I can merge dejavu with some chinese fonts.. should be possible, I just don't know how ;) will have a look when I come home. I've also found some small flaws today.

on linux, when the needed character isn't there it will look in the next font... and so on. Is that possible in rb? I guess no... hmm

edit: hmm bdf is just textbased, shouldn't be that hard
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 12, 2007, 09:07:02 AM
Here is the final release version of the Gigabeat port. I added the 8 vol icons, changed to the bigger ipod video icons, removed the rockbox logo, and made an extra Unifont version for those who needed the Unicode font. I think nothing else needs to be done with this port.  ;) Checkout the screen shots below:


could need cleaner icons... and it would probably look better with the icons nudged up a few pixels.
try this: http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/forumpics/gigabeaticons.zip
hope I made no mistakes this time..
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LinusN on December 12, 2007, 10:22:26 AM

Here is the final release version of the Gigabeat port.

Sure it is the final version?  :)

The cabbie2.0.cfg file uses helvr12, but it only looks correct if you use helvr14. Also, the zip file contains helvr14.fnt, so I guess you intended to use helvr14 but forgot to change the cfg file.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 12, 2007, 12:50:27 PM
The thread title should be changed to "DEFAULT FONT CONTEST!!!".  :)

Makes sense, I think we put the cart before the horse on this one... Should have seen it coming...

---
OR:

Keep on trucking with Helvetica, wrap up what's already been started and submit it to the default theme contest.  Given that the current default theme doesn't have a universal font either, what we've come up with is still a valid improvement, and who knows how long it might take to come up with a nice looking, flexible, uni-font?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 12, 2007, 01:40:24 PM
Did the icons in the gigabeat port get larger? Looks like they did but i downloaded the newest version on the link wiki page and its the same small icons.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 12, 2007, 02:58:56 PM
they did.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 12, 2007, 03:20:14 PM


Here is the final release version of the Gigabeat port.

Sure it is the final version?  :)

The cabbie2.0.cfg file uses helvr12, but it only looks correct if you use helvr14. Also, the zip file contains helvr14.fnt, so I guess you intended to use helvr14 but forgot to change the cfg file.



Dang, I knew I always forget something.

Also, thanks for the new icons ZincAlloy. And I will check to make sure the icons are updated in the zip file.

Edit: Ok, I fixed everything that I know was wrong, but anyone could check behind me to make sure. I will be updating the wps gallery in a few minutes.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 12, 2007, 03:58:47 PM
no prob. I'd recommend you to place them according to the included .wps file. I have repositioned them a bit to align them better and place them more harmonically between the last line of text and the edge of the screen.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Christine Tham on December 12, 2007, 05:30:55 PM
I suspect if I continue posting, people will start calling me "Font Girl"  ;D

I have managed to find a font (already in BDF format!) that supports CJK:

http://openlab.jp/efont/unicode/

By the way, I just realised that to support CJK, you really need a font size at least as big as Unifont, otherwise the characters are so small some of them may end up coming up as a solid blob. Some of these characters are really dense and even on Unifont I sometimes need a magnifying glass to see all the tiny little strokes.

So on the targets with small displays, we may need to rethink what we can fit on the screen to support CJK properly.

I really wish Rockbox supported multiple fonts properly on the WPS (yes, I am aware of the patch - I was thinking of support in SVN). Then we can solve the problem by using an English font for everything apart from song title/artist.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 12, 2007, 06:03:33 PM



Here is the final release version of the Gigabeat port.

Sure it is the final version?  :)

The cabbie2.0.cfg file uses helvr12, but it only looks correct if you use helvr14. Also, the zip file contains helvr14.fnt, so I guess you intended to use helvr14 but forgot to change the cfg file.



Dang, I knew I always forget something.

Also, thanks for the new icons ZincAlloy. And I will check to make sure the icons are updated in the zip file.

Edit: Ok, I fixed everything that I know was wrong, but anyone could check behind me to make sure. I will be updating the wps gallery in a few minutes.


My wps still does not show up correctly when you have the normal cabbie 2.0 on the gigabeat. The unifont theme works but the regular version does not.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: kperri on December 12, 2007, 06:11:19 PM




Here is the final release version of the Gigabeat port.

Sure it is the final version?  :)

The cabbie2.0.cfg file uses helvr12, but it only looks correct if you use helvr14. Also, the zip file contains helvr14.fnt, so I guess you intended to use helvr14 but forgot to change the cfg file.



Dang, I knew I always forget something.

Also, thanks for the new icons ZincAlloy. And I will check to make sure the icons are updated in the zip file.

Edit: Ok, I fixed everything that I know was wrong, but anyone could check behind me to make sure. I will be updating the wps gallery in a few minutes.


My wps still does not show up correctly when you have the normal cabbie 2.0 on the gigabeat. The unifont theme works but the regular version does not.


Sorry about that, I just fixed it and put the new one on the gallery. It was some sort of formatting error.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 12, 2007, 06:40:00 PM
A Unifont adaption is now included with the iriver version.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 12, 2007, 06:51:39 PM
So it has been decided that there will now be separate versions of the theme available with unicode and helvetica font? Also, what did you do with your version, did you just include it in the same zip? Is the plan to have both the unicode version and the helvetica version included in a default rockbox installation?

I will be updating the nano port soon, too.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 12, 2007, 07:02:18 PM
I'm not sure, but I think it's the best solution we can have at the moment. The unifont version is using the same graphics as the standard version. The only additional files are the .cfg, .wps and .rwps, so the file size of the whole package has barely increased.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 12, 2007, 07:07:36 PM
I also agree that having both versions in one zip is a good idea. Could this be added on all the To-Do lists?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 12, 2007, 07:12:47 PM
I doubt making a useable unifont version will be possible for targets with small screens.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 12, 2007, 07:29:54 PM
psycho_maniac, I think that this is the best way to go. Please add it to the to-do lists and end the discussion on the page with this outcome explained.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 12, 2007, 07:44:01 PM
Ipod Video port comes with Unifont version now.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 12, 2007, 08:43:52 PM
I added the unifont version to all the to-do lists tables. If you dont think that a unifont version will work for a certin screen you can just remove it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 12, 2007, 11:01:32 PM
A quick update on the 160x128 greyscale wps:
Unifont won't work (it's too big) - DejaVuSans does work (and looks better than Helv to me). Is DejaVuSans considered to be significantly better than Helv in terms of usefullness?

8 step volume is possible

I'm thinking of dropping the logo and using the extra width to make the icons larger (and making the shuffle/repeat icons more like the 'standard' Cabbie - currently they don't match due to the limited number of pixels). Any changes probably won't be done before the weekend though.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lenny on December 13, 2007, 12:16:05 AM

Just another quick note on the font issue. It's important to choose not just a Unicode font, but I personally think East Asian language support is desirable, so the Unicode font needs to support CJK (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) characters.

As an example, even though DejaVu is a Unicode font family, it does not support CJK.

Extract from the language coverage file for DejaVu:

ja     Japanese                                      (0/6538)           (0/6538)           (0/6538)    
ko     Korean                                        (0/2443)           (0/2443)           (0/2443)    
zh-cn  Chinese (simplified)                       0% (2/6765)        0% (2/6765)        0% (2/6765)    
zh-hk  Chinese Hong Kong Supplementary Character Set      (0/2213)           (0/2213)           (0/2213)    
zh-mo  Chinese in Macau                              (0/13063)          (0/13063)          (0/13063)    
zh-sg  Chinese in Singapore                       0% (2/6765)        0% (2/6765)        0% (2/6765)    
zh-tw  Chinese (traditional)                         (0/13063)          (0/13063)          (0/13063)    



So out of curiosity, would it be possible to use a font like DejaVuSans and then "fill in the gaps" (CJK) with a font like Unifont (assuming they were the same size), thereby making a new, complete font with good looking latin characters?

This whole business about making two versions of each wps seems like a lot of work and a bit of a messy solution. Especially because if a complete, good-looking font showed up, it would negate the need for two versions. But who am I to say that, it's not like I'm porting any wps's.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lazka on December 13, 2007, 12:28:46 AM
here is a preview version of dejavu with chinese simple/trad and japanese support. korean needs to be done.

thank python for the merging magic ;)

The merged font is the "firefly" bitmap version, which is GPL (http://www.study-area.org/apt/firefly-font/). There is also a better version of it available but is now under "ARPHIC PUBLIC LICENSE" which isn't  GPL compatible. (with 10% more characters... so.. not a big deal) http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/CJKUnifonts

http://lazka.maturaball06.com/public/
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 13, 2007, 02:53:24 AM
Awesome!
I wonder if it might be even better to extend the helvR fonts with additional characters, though. DejaVu sure is beautiful, but the characters are a fair bit wider than helvR's, which improves readability, but means more scrolling, especially on targets with small screens.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lazka on December 13, 2007, 04:26:23 AM
no prob... i will try to find as many good looking fonts as possible and we can merge them like we want to.

so.. unifont, dejavu+extra, helvR+extra.. that should cover all ports, right?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 13, 2007, 06:55:27 AM
excellent.
Yes, I think that would cover all ports.
is it a problem that we're using several sizes of helvR?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lazka on December 13, 2007, 07:12:00 AM
which ones?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 13, 2007, 07:13:21 AM
10 and 12. The Gigabeat port might even be using 14.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 13, 2007, 07:18:25 AM
I don't see it as a problem if different players use a different size of the same font. I don't even see it as a problem if they use entirely different fonts in some cases, if it's necessary.

But at the very least, different sizes of the same font certainly preserves a look, and trying to make all the players use the same size font is silly. Because of different pixel densities, the same size font won't look the same size on each player anyway.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 13, 2007, 07:30:45 AM

A quick update on the 160x128 greyscale wps:
Unifont won't work (it's too big) - DejaVuSans does work (and looks better than Helv to me). Is DejaVuSans considered to be significantly better than Helv in terms of usefullness?

8 step volume is possible

I'm thinking of dropping the logo and using the extra width to make the icons larger (and making the shuffle/repeat icons more like the 'standard' Cabbie - currently they don't match due to the limited number of pixels). Any changes probably won't be done before the weekend though.


yapper, I think you wouldn't gain much by dropping the logo. You can't scale up the icons much more. Make them any bigger and they will mess with the text.
As for the redesigned icons: I think they look good. no need to change them. They work well on a greyscale screen.
Is there absolutely no way to make a unifont version possible? You could drop some unimportant lines (like the one that says "next song/track:". a simple "next:" at the beginning of the next line will do) for the unifont version and nudge the text and graphics around a bit. It might fit. Needn't look perfect as long as it's working.

before you do any more work on this one we need to decide about the final greyscale bar design.
Opinions, please!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: perfectdrug on December 13, 2007, 09:47:00 AM
hi
I just want to say that the unifont version for the h300 theme doesn't work. The bitmaps aren't shown.
I have made themes myself before, and in my understanding this is because the wpsname has to be the same as the corresponding bitmap folder. so in this case you can't just use the existing cabbie default folder but have to create a cabbie unifont one.
when i change this everything works as expected.
So now I don't know if the developers can fix this restriction because you have already specified the folderpath.
have you actually tested the unifont version on device?
just a heads up
your work is appreciated.

(and one more tiny nitpick make sure to not include thumb.db files in the zip)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 13, 2007, 10:04:36 AM
too bad. it worked on the simulator.
just tried absolute paths. won't work either.



I keep deleting the thumbnail files. it's either these or ds_stores ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 13, 2007, 04:55:47 PM
What's with the Cabbie 3.0 theme you just released? I think that the default theme version looks a LOT better than it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 13, 2007, 05:01:22 PM
so do I :)  I was just playing around with the icons and reflections and thought that somebody might like it like this.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 13, 2007, 06:55:59 PM
ZincAlloy:
I'm happy leaving the icons as is, and I have no strong opinion on the greyscale bar.

Here's a crude side-by-side comparison of Unifont, DejaVuSans and HelvR10 on the greyscale wps. I think that even dropping the "Next Song" text, there will be too much scrolling going on due to the limited width with Unifont.

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 13, 2007, 07:11:08 PM
well, we don't make the unifont versions for aesthetic reasons, so scrolling would be ok.
you're lucky - the text lines line up with spaces between the graphics nearly perfectly. Reduce the next song info to one line or drop it completely and place the playback progress line correctly and you're done.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 13, 2007, 07:47:49 PM
So are we still using the helvR font or the new DejaVu font?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 13, 2007, 07:55:25 PM
Do we need Unicode if Lazka's work on extending Helv and/or DejaVuSans is successful?

Support-wise, it would be a lot nicer to have a single font that worked across all/many languages.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 14, 2007, 02:41:30 AM
I think helv looks better on this one but that just my opinion. We need to meet a decision here.
Lazka's work is great, but it's not an alternative to unifont yet. Unifont supports a huge number of different character sets. Until lazka's fonts have reached the same status that Unifont has now we do need to have a unifont version imho.

We need to find out how the unifont versions are going to be implemented. Using the standard  theme's pictures obviously doesn't work. Is this a bug? Or some stupid mistake of mine?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: scharkalvin on December 14, 2007, 10:09:07 AM
I just tried to download the Gigabeat theme
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/viewfile/Main/WpsGigabeatF?rev=2;filename=Cabbie2.0.zip
and the file is broken.  It does not unzip.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 14, 2007, 10:22:04 AM
What download and zip programs do you use? I would suggest to re-download the cabbie zip again.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: scharkalvin on December 14, 2007, 10:48:49 AM
Downloaded via firefox, right click on file name and enter path.

:~/stuff/rockbox$ file WpsGigabeatF.zip
WpsGigabeatF.zip: Zip archive data, at least v1.0 to extract


:~/stuff/rockbox$ unzip WpsGigabeatF.zip
Archive:  WpsGigabeatF.zip
  End-of-central-directory signature not found.  Either this file is not
  a zipfile, or it constitutes one disk of a multi-part archive.  In the
  latter case the central directory and zipfile comment will be found on
  the last disk(s) of this archive.
unzip:  cannot find zipfile directory in one of WpsGigabeatF.zip or
        WpsGigabeatF.zip.zip, and cannot find WpsGigabeatF.zip.ZIP, period.


:~/stuff/rockbox$ wget http://www.rockbox.org/tw...=2;filename=Cabbie2.0.zip
--11:15:19--  http://www.rockbox.org/tw...=2
           => `tw...=2'
Resolving www.rockbox.org... 91.191.140.131
Connecting to www.rockbox.org|91.191.140.131|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found
11:15:20 ERROR 404: Not Found.

hmm, firewall problem???

:~/stuff/rockbox$ ls -l
total 524
-rw-r--r-- 1 ken ken 529802 2007-12-14 10:29 WpsGigabeatF.zip

Is the file length correct?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on December 14, 2007, 11:43:14 AM
I just downloaded it again myself :

╭────╮ bryan@gbws-lin298 ─── [Fri Dec 14 04:38:05] [pts/14] ─────── ─
╰─[~/downloads/rockbox]╯
 â–» unzip -t Cabbie2.0.zip
Archive:  Cabbie2.0.zip
    testing: .rockbox/                OK
    testing: .rockbox/backdrops/      OK
    testing: .rockbox/backdrops/cabbie2defaultback.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/fonts/          OK
    testing: .rockbox/fonts/helvR14.fnt   OK
    testing: .rockbox/fonts/unifont.fnt   OK
    testing: .rockbox/icons/          OK
    testing: .rockbox/icons/tango_small.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/icons/tango_small_viewers.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/icons/tango_small_viewers.icons   OK
    testing: .rockbox/icons/Thumbs.db   OK
    testing: .rockbox/themes/         OK
    testing: .rockbox/themes/cabbie2.0.cfg   OK
    testing: .rockbox/themes/cabbie2.0Uni.cfg   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/            OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0.wps   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni.wps   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/batt00.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/batt01.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/batt02.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/batt03.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/batt04.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/batt05.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/batt06.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/batt07.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/battch.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/battpl.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/ff.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/lockclosed.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/lockopen.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/pause.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/pb.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/play.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/repeatab.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/repeatall.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/repeatone.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/repeatshuffle.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/rew.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/shuffle.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/stop.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/vol0.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/vol1.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/vol2.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/vol3.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/vol4.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/vol5.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/vol6.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/vol7.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/vol8.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0Uni/wpsbackdrop.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/batt00.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/batt01.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/batt02.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/batt03.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/batt04.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/batt05.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/batt06.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/batt07.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/battch.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/battpl.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/ff.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/lockclosed.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/lockopen.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/pause.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/pb.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/play.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/repeatab.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/repeatall.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/repeatone.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/repeatshuffle.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/rew.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/shuffle.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/stop.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/vol0.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/vol1.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/vol2.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/vol3.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/vol4.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/vol5.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/vol6.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/vol7.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/vol8.bmp   OK
    testing: .rockbox/wps/cabbie2.0/wpsbackdrop.bmp   OK
No errors detected in compressed data of Cabbie2.0.zip.
╭────╮ bryan@gbws-lin298 ─── [Fri Dec 14 04:40:08] [pts/14] ─────── ─
╰─[~/downloads/rockbox]╯
 â–» ls -l Cabbie2.0.zip
-rw-r--r-- 1 bryan users 662253 2007-12-14 16:39 Cabbie2.0.zip
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: scharkalvin on December 14, 2007, 12:38:54 PM
Well it looks like my file got truncated since the file size is a bit smaller than yours.
I'll try it again from home since I seem to have a problem behind the compay firewall.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lazka on December 14, 2007, 12:43:55 PM
Code: [Select]
$ cksum Cabbie2.0.zip
2894307616 662253 Cabbie2.0.zip


Ok... it's really difficult to make a small unifont. The only possible 11px font is the one I posted before with latin and chinese support. I could cover most languages with a too small 10pt korean font and a Non-GPL japanese one added... I definitely need to find more here.

And I don't know which CJK fonts look better since i don't know the language. Also all ttf fonts either scale well to either even oder odd heights. lots of troubles you see:P

anyway. here is a 12px font including (merged in this order):
 Â  - HelvR12 (??) - latin
 Â  - efont (GPL) - lots of stuff
 Â  - Wen Quan Yi (GPL) - more chin/jap
 Â  - undotum (GPL) - more korean

http://lazka.maturaball06.com/public/mix12.zip

what do you think?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 14, 2007, 01:57:37 PM
very impressive. great work!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 14, 2007, 04:16:58 PM
What'll happen to to the helvR10 font size?   :-[
This will be a problem because most ports use the 10 font size...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 14, 2007, 07:02:31 PM
lazka:  very nice.

This one (lazka's mix12 font) works quite well with the greyscale wps. The empty line before "Next Track" has to be omitted, but nothing major is lost.

Here's a screen shot (I've also altered the greyscale bar - comments welcome):

Edit:  The second screenshot is a mockup of a slightly tweaked layout, with a graphic for the NEXT heading (centred so it also works without AlbumArt), and with the icons dropped down a few pixels.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 15, 2007, 02:26:17 PM
So are we making any more progress with this theme?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 15, 2007, 02:38:35 PM
Yapper, I like you new bars!

crzyboyster, I think the initial enthusiasm for this project is gone. we're making progress, but much slower now.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 15, 2007, 02:48:04 PM
Well that just sucks  >:(
We made so much progress, just to not be able to finish it?
Another issue is that certain wps's are way behind and need like 5 things updated.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 15, 2007, 02:54:58 PM
You do realize, crzyboyster, that you're just as able as anyone else to work on this. Stating it sucks doesn't get things done, working on them does.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 15, 2007, 05:41:45 PM
I took your advice and made the iAudio x5 and iriver h10 version MUCH better.

Looks a lot better now.

(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/viewfile/Main/WpsIaudioX5?rev=1;filename=dump_071215-161859.PNG)

(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/viewfile/Main/WpsIaudioX5?rev=1;filename=dump_071215-161952.PNG)

Tell me what you think. Also, this would probably need bug checks as I did it all on a sim.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 15, 2007, 05:53:10 PM
excellent. good work!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 15, 2007, 05:56:38 PM
I'll be fixing up the c200 version as well this weekend if I have the time.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 15, 2007, 06:19:16 PM
crzyboyster:  Good stuff!  What font are you using?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 15, 2007, 06:26:30 PM
yapper: you mean on the c200 version? Well, there is a helvR08 size available (look on rasher's font pages), but I'm otherwise open to suggestions.


at http://rasher.dk/rockbox/fonts/75dpi/  (helvR08)

here's how it looks:

(http://rasher.dk/rockbox/fonts/75dpi/helvR08.png)

What do you think? Should I use it on the c200 version?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 15, 2007, 06:36:42 PM
I've been using lazka's multi-language font, as it seems to solve at least some of the multi-language issues, without needing to have multiple versions of the theme.

It's 12px high so I don't know if it would work for you.


http://lazka.maturaball06.com/public/mix12.zip
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 15, 2007, 06:42:48 PM
No, the 12 pixel high font would not work for this port or most other ports. It needs to be atleast 10 pixels high to be considered.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 15, 2007, 07:19:10 PM

No, the 12 pixel high font would not work for this port or most other ports. It needs to be atleast 10 pixels high to be considered.


You mean 10 pixels or less?  :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 15, 2007, 07:28:56 PM
Well, 10 pixels would work for most, but 8 pixels would be best for the very small screens like the c200.

Here's how the c200 version is looking, still kind of buggy.

(The text would be centered, though)

(http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14400.0;attach=2383;image)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 16, 2007, 06:22:15 AM
crzy, I think we decided that the icons should have priority over the logo, especially on smaller screens. That's why the logo was left out.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 16, 2007, 11:37:48 AM
Well, the problem is that we are trying to make it look similar on all targets, right? So if we got rid of the logo and made the icons bigger (like they were), they're just too bug relative to the screen size. Also, this way it makes it look more compact, just like the screen. If we're going to make the text small, make it all small.

I honestly think it looks good as it is, what does everyone else think?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 16, 2007, 12:02:36 PM
in my humble opinion readability is more important than uniformity
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 16, 2007, 12:12:22 PM
Hey folks, sorry for bailing on this project but I've got a lot going on right now and this is definitely not making the top 10.  Plus my hands hurt a lot, I think I'm destroying my carpal tunnels and need to take a break from the computer using when possible.  Have fun, I think I posted everything I worked on but if I forgot to upload anything let me know.

Chinchincherio,
Marc
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 16, 2007, 12:15:03 PM
ZincAlloy: you do realize that it's completely readable and the icons have the same size as in the nano and h10 ports? (atleast I think they do)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 16, 2007, 12:20:51 PM
that's true. but I think if we can get away with large icons and fonts we should use them.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 16, 2007, 12:59:54 PM
Obviously one down side of using a small font is that it makes support of some of the more complicated charactersets impossible/difficult (see lazka's comments earlier in this thread particularly about Japanese/Chinese/Korean).

However I think the answer hinges to some extent on whether or not the c200 OF supports those languages. If it doesn't, then nothing is lost by using a small font that also doesn't support them. On the other hand, if the c200 OF DOES support chinese/japanese/korean character sets, then this WPS loses functionality for those users.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 16, 2007, 01:52:14 PM
Of course, we could make a unifont version with alternating sublines for track-album-artist  ;D
that would work quite nicely

anyways, here's how the new version is looking with smaller (namil-8) font and helvR10 font.
note that the icons on the menu are smooshed on the menu screen.
So, which font should I use?

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 16, 2007, 02:01:30 PM
crzyboyster: I prefer the second version (the one without the "Next" line).

I haven't got a c200, but I took a look at the User Manual online, and it appear the OF uses a display layout with only about 5 lines of info (top and bottom lines are used for icons/status, and the middle three for album/artist/track text), so going for the slightly larger font might make more people happy :)

Has anyone tried this on a real c200 to see what it actual looks like?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 16, 2007, 02:08:43 PM
I have to agree, too, yapper, we can also make a unifont version quite easily with alternating sublines (only way I think). I will release it tomorrow.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 16, 2007, 04:38:39 PM
We still have no idea how to use the standard wps's images for the unifont version, have we?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 16, 2007, 09:58:30 PM
ZincAlloy: I think we're in over our heads

Anyways, I just posted the redone version of the c200 version.

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DefaultWPS#132_x_80_16_bit_colour_Sansa_c20

EDIT: next up is the e200 version...
This is kind of sad as noone wants to help finish this up....

 :( And this smiley doesn't even convey my sadness...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 17, 2007, 02:33:41 AM
I was rather busy over the weekend.
I might be able to do this one tonight.


Edit: done!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 17, 2007, 04:18:21 PM
ZincAlloy: Why isn't the screen with album art for the e200 version filled up? Add in more info or bigger album art.

And thanks for helping me out!

All we have to do now is the iriver h10 version. That one seems like a mess...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 17, 2007, 04:24:32 PM
because the album art was made for my iriver h340 (75x75). The album art for the e200 can be much bigger.
the h10 version needs some work indeed. and we don't have the original graphics for this one.
I'll do it tomorrow.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: talos321 on December 17, 2007, 05:42:40 PM
I agree with what Zinc Alloy said about readability. in the Gigabeat themes (not just this one) the text is way too small. Yes it is taller so everyone tries to fill the screen with tiny text and makes 90% of the themes unreadable (must alter them).

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 17, 2007, 05:50:20 PM
Hold on a second, talos321, you're talking about the font size here? The font size is usually well selected for each target and the maximum it can be.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 17, 2007, 05:55:27 PM
actually I think the one on the gigabeat looks oversized.. but I have not gigabeat to check.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: talos321 on December 17, 2007, 06:43:20 PM
This is what I'm talking about the photo on the rockbox wiki isn't what you see when you have a Gigabeat. I resized several themes to show what it looks like for the end user. When you look at the Wiki it shows a photo almost 3/4 the size of the device. Though they are a little clearer than compressed .jpg. I would say that the only two with easy to read text decent enough to read   are Black Escape and Ajax (which unfortunately are pretty barebone).

Actually these are a tad bigger than the actual screen

http://bellsouthpwp2.net/z/a/zasylum/Cabbie2AA.jpg

http://bellsouthpwp2.net/z/a/zasylum/Cabbie2Menu.jpg

http://bellsouthpwp2.net/z/a/zasylum/menu.jpg

http://bellsouthpwp2.net/z/a/zasylum/BlackEscape.jpg

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 17, 2007, 06:47:28 PM
that's still pretty large. helvr10 on my iriver is smaller.



edit: I just realized: not only do we not have the graphics for the h10 port, the wps can't even be downloaded at this point... looks like I have to build it from scratch.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 17, 2007, 08:01:29 PM

actually I think the one on the gigabeat looks oversized.. but I have not gigabeat to check.

If you can't watch it on the target's display you can't say anything about the size. Your monitor most probably has different pixel dimensions and I've seen an Ipod Video display which already has quite tiny pixels and I've heard that the Gigabeat's display is even a bit smaller. Have a look at the picture in the second post of this thread which shows differences between the targets. ;) To go further: imagine that the Nano's display (176x132 pixels wide) is physically smaller than the Ondio's display (112x64, rectangular pixels...) which you can see in above mentioned picture.

Speaking of which... I'll attach a gif which (a) show the Archos port on my Ondio and (b) makes the rectangular pixels very obvious (just as another proof that there can be great differences between the sim and the "real thing").

A few notes about the Archos port itself:


About the development in other ports:
I still think that the c200 version could use a font that's a bit smaller but not as small as crzyboyster's second version (nimbus-10 is quite nice) and the album art there could be a tad bit bigger. In another thread I mentioned I tried myself with 40x40 pictures and this is in my opinion the minimum. Maybe I can post a real photo of it too if someone's interested.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 17, 2007, 08:02:08 PM
ZincAlloy: don't mourn yet! look at http://www.misticriver.net/forums/rockbox-h10-series/56970-default-theme-contest-cabbie-2-0-5-6gb-version.html
a little bit down on that page, there is a download for the h10 version available.
You can also message the poster about the psd source.
Good luck!

EDIT: very nice job, pixelma! You made an awesome port for such a tiny screened player! Also, we will probably need to go through all of the ports once and add unifont support for practically all of them and finx bugs that may have cropped up and also unify all of them.

Also, I'm pretty sure the nimbus-10 font is the same size as the helvR10 font that I'm using right now. Also, one of the requirements is to "have the same feel" for the theme across targets. Nimbus on one just doesn't fit the bill.

Other comments welcome!


EDIT 2: Wow, I sure do type "also" a lot in my replies, don't I?  ;D
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 17, 2007, 08:21:23 PM

Also, I'm pretty sure the nimbus-10 font is the same size as the helvR10 font that I'm using right now. Also, one of the requirements is to "have the same feel" for the theme across targets. Nimbus on one just doesn't fit the bill.

Nimbus-10 would give you exactly 8 lines on the c200 display - in the screenshot I only see 6 lines (in the browser) that's why I think that font takes 12 pixels in height. And about the same feel... that's why I'm suggesting Nimbus too, as there are a few sizes of it. For example Nimbus-19 is nice on an Ipod Video display too (I was a bit surprised myself when I had the possibility, judging from the sim I always thought that this font is too big...)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 17, 2007, 08:24:33 PM
Well, we can't just change the font for one of them. And using nimbus changes the whole feel of the theme.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on December 18, 2007, 01:15:08 AM
I would just like to reiterate how different the target and the sim looks - I always need a much bigger font than I think I will from looking at the sim on the gigabeat.  I currently use a 16 pt font and that is the absolute minimum I would consider using.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 18, 2007, 02:40:17 AM
16? wow... that would put things out of proportion for sure. I might need to redesign this one.

pixelma, great job on the archos version!

crzyboyster: thank you, makes it much easier. I didn't realize this forum is hard to use  ;D

should we make an ipod mini port based on the h100/ipod4g version? We obviously can't decide for a uniform look for greyscale targets but each one looks ok on its own to me.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on December 18, 2007, 03:00:38 AM
Personal opinions are going to differ on font size. I like the size it is already on the Gigabeat - 16 would be way too big for me.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on December 18, 2007, 03:13:46 AM

Personal opinions are going to differ on font size. I like the size it is already on the Gigabeat - 16 would be way too big for me.


Sure, that is normal.  However, the point remains that you can only really have that discussion if you have seen it on target, since it does look very different.  Any, it isn't a massive deal for me as if I were to use this theme, I would change it to have a better (for me) font size anyway.  Whatever happens it is better than the current default.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 18, 2007, 07:50:18 AM
what are the screen dimensions of the gigabeat (in cm or inch) of the gigabeat?


edit: made a completely new version for the h10 5gb

edit: I'll take care of the ipod mini port now.

edit: nearly done. however, the greys in the backdrop won't display correctly, even though I used the two shades that should work correctly. any idea what went wrong? 
edit: nevermind. we found out what went wrong.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: talos321 on December 18, 2007, 02:09:06 PM
Gigabeat Screen Size

Edit:
1.5 W Inch x1.78 H Inch

3.8cm w  x 4.5cm h

I would a agree it is better than the default too.
I can pick around altering it till it is viewable.
Although I haven't gotten into making themes.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: tweak on December 18, 2007, 02:58:16 PM
To any who may be interested I made some changes to the IPOD 5g Cabbie default 2.0 WPS. The below code ads two alternating lines below the time bar, original code then volume db and codex info at 4 second intervals. In addition, I removed the year from the current playing song to enable the use of a bigger font, helvB12-L1, and capitalized next song with multiple ":" on each side for better contrast from the track information.






Code: [Select]
# cabbie 2.0 default
# (C) 2007, Johannes Voggenthaler (Zinc Alloy)
#derived from "cabbie" (C) Yohann Misquitta
%wd
%X|wpsbackdrop.bmp|0|0|
%P|pb.bmp|
%xl|A|lockclosed.bmp|91|207|
%xl|B|lockopen.bmp|91|207|
%xl|C|battpl.bmp|126|207|
%xl|D|battch.bmp|126|207|
%xl|E|batt00.bmp|126|207|
%xl|F|batt01.bmp|126|207|
%xl|G|batt02.bmp|126|207|
%xl|H|batt03.bmp|126|207|
%xl|I|batt04.bmp|126|207|
%xl|J|batt05.bmp|126|207|
%xl|K|batt06.bmp|126|207|
%xl|L|batt07.bmp|126|207|
%xl|M|vol0.bmp|177|207|
%xl|N|vol1.bmp|177|207|
%xl|O|vol2.bmp|177|207|
%xl|P|vol3.bmp|177|207|
%xl|Q|vol4.bmp|177|207|
%xl|b|vol5.bmp|177|207|
%xl|c|vol6.bmp|177|207|
%xl|d|vol7.bmp|177|207|
%xl|e|vol8.bmp|177|207|
%xl|R|shuffle.bmp|218|211|
%xl|S|repeatall.bmp|261|207|
%xl|T|repeatone.bmp|261|207|
%xl|U|repeatshuffle.bmp|261|207|
%xl|V|repeatab.bmp|261|207|
%xl|W|stop.bmp|286|207|
%xl|X|play.bmp|286|207|
%xl|Y|pause.bmp|286|207|
%xl|Z|ff.bmp|286|207|
%xl|a|rew.bmp|286|207|
%Cl|16|32|s120|s120|
%pb|15|10|310|162|
#NowPlaying

%?C<%s%m|153|%al%?ia<%ia|%?d2<%d2|(Searching)>>|%s%ac%?ia<%ia|%?d2<%d2|(Searching)>>>
%?C<%s%m|153|%al%?it<%it|%fn>|%s%ac%?it<%it|%fn>>
%?C<%s%m|153|%al%?id<%id|%?d1<%d1|(Searching)>>|%s%ac%?id<%id|%?d1<%d1|(Searching)>>>
%?C<%s%m|153|%alNEXT SONG:|%ac::::::::::::: NEXT SONG :::::::::::::>
%?C<%s%m|153|%al%?It<%It|%Fn>|%s%ac%?It<%It|%Fn>>
%?C<%s%m|153|%al%Ia|%s%ac%Ia>


%al%pc%ac%t4%pp of %pe%ar%pr;%ac%t4volume: %pv  

%?mh<%xdA|%xdB>


%?bp<%?bc<%xdD|%xdC>|%?bl<|%xdE|%xdF|%xdG|%xdH|%xdI|%xdJ|%xdK|%xdL>>
%?pv<%xdM|%xdN|%xdO|%xdP|%xdQ|%xdb|%xdc|%xdd|%xde|>
%?ps<%xdR>
%?mm<|%xdS|%xdT|%xdU|%xdV>
%?mp<%xdW|%xdX|%xdY|%xdZ|%xda>
%?C<%C>
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 18, 2007, 03:31:28 PM
Ok, iPod Mini theme is up. Now I only need to make some more unifont versions.

talos, imho the font size isn't bad at all when I resize a gigabeat screenshot to it's actual size.


Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 18, 2007, 05:37:22 PM
a blurry picture, but I can still read the wps. the text on the can is unreadable.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 18, 2007, 05:37:33 PM
talos321: what are you complaining about? from that picture, the font seems fine! and if you don't like it, install a different theme!

sorry to be mean and all, but seriously. you could make your own separate version of it with bigger font and post it...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LinusN on December 19, 2007, 05:24:17 PM
I agree with talos321 about the font size. I think it is a tad small. It's not like there isn't room for the text on that huge screen.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on December 19, 2007, 09:06:40 PM
Seriously guys, it is next to impossible to judge without looking at the unit.  Those of us that actually have one that have spoken up, some think it is too small (me, LinusN, talos321) some think it is good (GodEater), and that is just a matter of personal preference.  But you really cannot judge from a picture or the sim.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Christine Tham on December 20, 2007, 01:08:06 AM
Add me to the list of people who think the font is too small (and I own two units: a Gigabeat F40 and an X60).

Sure it's readable, but compare it side by side with an Ipod Video/Classic with the Apple UI, and the ipod is miles ahead in clarity and readability.

I was sitting next to guy with an Ipod Classic in a plane yesterday, and I can read his ipod clearly across seats, whereas on my Rockboxed gigabeat, I need to stare quite hard at the unit because the font is so small.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 20, 2007, 08:07:11 AM
there is hardly any information on the ipod's now playing screen. that's how the get away with such a huge font.
somebody could try drop the first line of the gigabeat port and rearrange things to allow for a bigger font. not sure if this will work.

I made unifont versions of all the themes I worked on:


Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: talos321 on December 20, 2007, 09:01:38 AM
 Wow I certainly am  surprised someone else said something. Really I wasn't complaining more so mentioning that for this player I've noticed that the majority of the the themes treat this player like it has a large Pda screen when in fact is more so like a 1.8 screen that is slightly taller. Looks great on the simulator looks like ants on the actual device. So with this becoming the "official thing" I would rather it be WOW than What is that? That being said and all I'm getting into learning how to least alter the wps themes and thinking about making larger font versions of all the Gigabeat themes. Well except 4Car which is lovely.
 :P


Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 20, 2007, 09:17:49 AM
It's odd, really. many of the themes in the gallery were designed for the gigabeat. and most of them use tiny fonts. One should think that people wo make themes for a specific target should be aware of this issue or have a player at hand to check how things look...
The original cabbie was designed for good readability on the gigabeat and it's font is about the same size as the one we're using now.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 20, 2007, 10:25:34 AM
Just speaking up as another Gigabeat owner, I find the readability fine.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Christine Tham on December 20, 2007, 02:42:39 PM

It's odd, really. many of the themes in the gallery were designed for the gigabeat. and most of them use tiny fonts. One should think that people wo make themes for a specific target should be aware of this issue or have a player at hand to check how things look...
The original cabbie was designed for good readability on the gigabeat and it's font is about the same size as the one we're using now.


Speaking as someone who contributed 3 themes to rockbox-themes.org, I can perhaps shed some light on the use of small fonts ...
(a) some theme authors design on the simulator, with a bigger virtual screen. this was the case for my first theme (Totoro) when I used a small font. Looked fine on the simulator, but very small on the real screen
(b) also some authors may have a tendency to try and cram as much info as possible (given that on the gigabeat there is enough room to potentially display information in ALL tags if one so wishes) - i still have this tendency.

The Gigabeat has an extremely high resolution screen, so even though it has the same resolution as a typical PDA (QVGA) the screen is about 2/3 that of a typical PDA, so the dot pitch is very narrow.

Even though the screen is very sharp, so that even tiny fonts are readable, it does make many fonts look small. My impression is a 16-point font on the Gigabeat looks similar to a 10-12 point font on the computer screen. So a 10-12 point font would look like an 8-point font.

I don't think anyone is disputing that 8-point fonts are readable - even on a computer screen. The question is whether one would sit all day in front of a computer reading 8-point text. Similarly for an MP3 player, one could question whether it may be better to have larger fonts that is easier to read at a glance rather than something to squint at.

Anyway, I'm currently designing another theme (with graphics all created from scratch on Photoshop to avoid any copyright issues) and I'm using Unifont, but I would actually like to use an even bigger font if I could (maybe 18-20?).

I tried converting efont using convbdf, but for some reason it doesn't seem to work. I get a really small 16-byte .fnt file. ???
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 20, 2007, 03:02:05 PM
We're moving along. I just finished up the nano version, should follow all of the guidelines. Find it at http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIpodNano#Cabbie_2_0_for_nano
There is also a unifont version now available. Screenshot attached.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 20, 2007, 03:04:57 PM
looking good. thumbs up!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 20, 2007, 03:49:26 PM
Another thing. I am in the process of fixing up the c200 version and once again, I can't decide on the font. I came upon a font called "Sazanami-Mincho-Regular-11.fnt". It's part of the fonts pack and goes quite well with the theme. It also does not impair the icons. All the screenshots are attached, so do you think that I should use this font rather than helvrwhatever?

Another thing that I noticed with this on the sim was that there were odd progressbar "flickers" every 5-7 seconds. To see one of them, look on the defaultwps wiki page. Does anyone know what they are caused by?

Here come the screendumps
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Christine Tham on December 20, 2007, 04:16:34 PM

Just speaking up as another Gigabeat owner, I find the readability fine.


Just a quick note: what is readable in English may not be readable in other languages, particularly East Asian languages.

Here is an example (in Japanese, so the characters will only hopefully display correctly on your browser):

Can you easily tell the difference between 鳥 and 島? One means bird, the other means island.

Lots of other examples, some different only by one small stroke. Even in Unifont 16 point on a computer, the differences may be hard to spot.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 20, 2007, 04:33:07 PM
Yes, but we're discussing fonts that don't support these charactersets fully anyway, so that question is irrelevant.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 20, 2007, 05:02:57 PM
So, what does everyone think of the font? Should I stick to helvR10? Comments please.  ;D
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LinusN on December 20, 2007, 05:08:27 PM
I still think readability is one thing and usability another. Yes, I can read the small font on the Gigabeat just fine, but I have to look closely. I can't take a quick glance at it. A slightly larger font would in my opinion look nicer, be easier on the eyes, and also allow for asian character sets.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 20, 2007, 06:33:39 PM
Maybe after we get this theme finished for all ports. We can work on the normal cabbie theme. That seemed like a good candiate but the support for it died.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 20, 2007, 09:17:22 PM
I've started fixing up the h10/x5 version. Here are some screendumps. Tell me what you think. One thing though is that I had to modify the unifont rwps a bit, so will it be okay to include in only that release? And does anyone know how to get a screendump of the rwps?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 20, 2007, 09:49:15 PM
Nice - you could try using lazka's mix12 font (the one I used on the iPod 1G2G port which has the same screen size), as it falls midway between the two font sizes you have in your screendumps above.

http://lazka.maturaball06.com/public/mix12.zip

And I have no clue about how to get a rwps screendump.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Christine Tham on December 20, 2007, 09:52:07 PM

Yes, but we're discussing fonts that don't support these charactersets fully anyway, so that question is irrelevant.


I was under the impression some of the fonts under discussion supports CJK. the mixed one does, sazanami does, unifont of course does.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 20, 2007, 09:55:00 PM
Christine Tham:
Yes, some fonts do (lazka's mix12):

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 20, 2007, 10:34:14 PM
Does lazka's mix12 font have the entire CJK library, or atleast as much as unifont does?

Thanks
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 20, 2007, 10:51:44 PM
Good question - all I know is what lazka posted:


 a 12px font including (merged in this order):
 Â  - HelvR12 (??) - latin
 Â  - efont (GPL) - lots of stuff
 Â  - Wen Quan Yi (GPL) - more chin/jap
 Â  - undotum (GPL) - more korean


We need a font expert on board, or some testers who can check out the other charactersets.

Edit:
Found this http://wqy.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/enindex.cgi?BitmapSong_en
Quote
The Wen Quan Yi bitmap font is a manually fine-tuned multi-strike bitmap font for on-screen display of Chinese (traditional and simplified). It has arguably the most complete coverage for Chinese characters among all known open-source fonts, including CJK Unified Ideograph (U4E00 - U9FA5) and CJK Unified Ideograph Extension A (U3400 - U4DB5) glyphs at four different sizes (9pt-12X12 pixel, 10pt-13X13 pixel, 11pt-15X15 pixel, 12pt-16x16 pixel) and two weights (medium and bold). Use this font in web pages and elsewhere eliminates the annoying "blurring" problems caused by the high stroke density of many Chinese characters and insufficient "hinting" of anti-aliased Chinese fonts. This font also provides bitmap glyphs for Basic Latin, Japanese Hiragana (U3040 - U309F) and Katakana (U30A0 - U30FF).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 20, 2007, 11:33:40 PM
Well, I'm going to stick to a separate unifont version.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 21, 2007, 10:06:16 AM
And does anyone know how to get a screendump of the rwps?


I think what I ended up doing was taking a screenshot and cropping it.  Not sure if there's an easier way.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 21, 2007, 01:01:12 PM
Just finished up the h10/x5 version.
screendumps:
(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/viewfile/Main/WpsIaudioX5?rev=1;filename=cabbie2-iAudioX5-menu.PNG)
(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/viewfile/Main/WpsIaudioX5?rev=1;filename=cabbie2-iAudioX5-WPS.PNG)
(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/viewfile/Main/WpsIaudioX5?rev=1;filename=cabbie2-iAudioX5-WPS-AA.PNG)
(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/viewfile/Main/WpsIaudioX5?rev=2;filename=cabbie2x5unifontrwps.png)
(http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/viewfile/Main/WpsIaudioX5?rev=2;filename=cabbie2x5defaultrwps.png)

Testing is needed and someone who has experience with the whole rwps thing needs to take a look at it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 21, 2007, 01:20:36 PM
are your "next track" tags right?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 21, 2007, 01:24:42 PM
ZincAlloy: Um, I don't know. Do you want to check it out and tell me?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 21, 2007, 01:31:32 PM
looks alright. I was confused by the fact that the next track in your screenshots is the one that is playing.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 21, 2007, 01:38:46 PM
We need to optimize the repeat icons because I just looked in your original h300 version and I can't even tell the difference between each! I think that that's the next optimization needed. Do you agree?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 21, 2007, 01:43:49 PM
I can tell the difference, but it ain't easy. for most targets it was on the to do list (fix play mode icons...) should have said "fix repeat mode icons" in my opinion...
I've updated the ones for the sansa e200 and h10 5 gb already. we should do this for every target individually, for the space between the pointers varies and and should be used as efficiently as possible.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 21, 2007, 01:55:04 PM
I'm going to make a new check/x thing on the wiki for all of the themes that need clearer repeat icons.

EDIT: added it to the wiki. ZincAlloy: do you want to actually do it?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 21, 2007, 06:31:47 PM
just updated the h300 version
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 21, 2007, 09:10:49 PM
I just added the better repeat icons to the nano and x5/h10 versions. I'm going to finish up the c200 version, but I need to know which font to use.

does this one look better?:
(http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10030.0;attach=2413;image)

or this one?:
(http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10030.0;attach=2385;image)

(the only difference is supposed to be the font, so just judge the font).

Also, can you look at my repeat icons real quick and tell me if they're ok?

pixelma: whatever happened to your archos version?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 21, 2007, 09:28:26 PM
If I couldd make a suggestion for the 138 x 110 - 2 bit greyscale (iPod Mini) version:  Put all of the the next track info on one line so the screen isn't packed with text (i.e. Next: Song Title).  

Retail value: 2cents.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 21, 2007, 09:51:58 PM

If I couldd make a suggestion for the 138 x 110 - 2 bit greyscale (iPod Mini) version:  Put all of the the next track info on one line so the screen isn't packed with text (i.e. Next: Song Title).

Or put "Next" as part of the background graphic like I did for the iPod 1G2G port.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 22, 2007, 05:22:54 AM
I think it's better if we leave it  as is. A "next" bar would need a seperate graphic in this case.
putting "next:" in a line with the next track info is inappropriate here because the line is very short, which means more scrolling. Having the "next track:"text in a seperate line avoids this, though it looks a bit more cluttered.

crzy, if nobody has an opinion on the font use helvR for uniformity.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 22, 2007, 07:19:50 PM
I've been fixing up the c200 version but I'm not able to draw "AB" into the ab repeat icon.

ZincAlloy: The icon is attached in png format. Can you fix it up?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 22, 2007, 07:56:25 PM
sure.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 22, 2007, 08:50:16 PM
I've been doing the c200 unifont version but squeezing all 3 lines of info is impossible. I can only do what's in the screendump. Any ideas on whether or not to minimize the info or use alternating sublines?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 22, 2007, 09:27:02 PM
I'd probably go for reducing the info, as alternating sublines would take a long time to scroll around. But it's not a clear cut choice (I like to know what's coming next, so dropping that would bother me too) :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 23, 2007, 12:07:15 PM
ZincAlloy or others: what do you guys think? which one should take priority?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 23, 2007, 05:16:30 PM
no idea. something HAS to be compromised here. just do what feels best.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: terrence1019 on December 23, 2007, 11:16:33 PM
Hey guys.

Has anyone considered using the acknowledge-12 font? It is very versatile, and can be used in different platforms
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on December 24, 2007, 12:01:52 AM
Does acknowledge-12 have any advantage over Helv?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: terrence1019 on December 24, 2007, 05:06:04 AM
Yeah.

I tested it with multiple themes, and it seems to be very adaptive, though I had to adjust the WPS graphics for some themes. It fits perfectly with a good majority. It also looks much neater than the Helv font: more decent and less sparse.

Try it.  :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 24, 2007, 08:42:31 AM
Cabbie default was originally intended to use the snap font, which looks similar to acknowledge, but it turned out it didn't work with my original layout and helv was way easier to read. We would need different sizes of a font, as well.
In my opinion acknowledge shouldn't be considered for the default theme.


edit: I just realized: it looks as if we're done with cabbie 2. great work, everybody. I enjoyed this project a lot. lots of love to all of you!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 24, 2007, 09:50:08 AM
I was the one who made the acknowledge font using the ttf/otf font conversion tools available somewhere on the site in the wiki, and I only made font sizes I could use with the themes I made.  If you wanted more sizes, I'd recommend getting those tools and searching for that font (I found it as part of a giant font pack, some 6,760 fonts in all).  Just be warned that the point sizes don't match the pixel height of the font (the number I have in the font name is the pixel height), so it may take some trial and error to get matching sizes to currently used fonts in many themes.  Also, the font has a _lot_ of extra space above and below the letters, which are only around 5 pixels high (for both the 10- and the 12-pixel high fonts), and would be next to impossible to read on the higher resolution displays with higher pixel density.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 24, 2007, 01:30:03 PM
ZincAlloy: We're pretty much done except for the archos port. I wonder when pixelma will be finished? I think we should start discussion about which ports to add to SVN.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 24, 2007, 01:45:23 PM
whoops, didn't see that it was still missing.. pixelma's work in progress screenshots look like she's nearly done, though.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on December 24, 2007, 02:33:04 PM
The best way to talk about porting to svn would probably be in IRC or the mailing list.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on December 24, 2007, 04:55:40 PM
FS#6568 changes the default theme to whatever we like it to be.  

First all the WPS themes have to be combined into 1, and all file name collisions fixed so that they can be committed to SVN.

The current SVN themes are a good example:

http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/wps/iCatcher/

Though I'm not entirely sure how all this works.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 25, 2007, 03:25:12 PM
...done except for the archos port. I wonder when pixelma will be finished? I think we should start discussion about which ports to add to SVN.

Actually it was already done for a while but I didn't have much time to upload it yet (real life) - I've uploaded it today. There could be still some things to be discussed about and I hope I mentioned all "issues" in the wiki. And keep in mind that the graphics will look more narrow on the real display...  ;)

First all the WPS themes have to be combined into 1, and all file name collisions fixed so that they can be committed to SVN. (...) Though I'm not entirely sure how all this works.

The different .wps files need names that include the resolution they were made for (e.g. cabbie2.112x64x1.wps) and then be added to the WPSLIST with definitions of the font, possibly foreground and background colour (it's quite self-explanatory if you have a look into the file).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 25, 2007, 08:30:20 PM
pixelma, I don't think the first three points on your list need any discussion. what you did makes perfect sense to me.

the menu icons on the other hand deserve some discussion.


another thing that could need a little redesign is the status bar.
In my opinion it needs some rearranging. I would prefer the time centered with the rest aligned left and right - at least on large screens.
Targets with larger screens need larger icons - maybe even greyscale or color... but 2 bit is enough as long as the icons are looking nice. Ideally the status bar would use the same font as the menu and the wps...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 26, 2007, 11:53:17 PM
I see that we need to do a lot of renaming...
Llorean: What else do we need to do for this to become the default theme? What would be the next steps and does this actually have the potential to become the default for many players?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on December 27, 2007, 03:02:46 AM

I see that we need to do a lot of renaming...
Llorean: What else do we need to do for this to become the default theme? What would be the next steps and does this actually have the potential to become the default for many players?


I (or someone else) will commit the theme itself as soon as its ready to go into SVN (renamed, etc).  Then we can look into getting that patch setup to work with this theme as the default.  Once we're sure it works, I don't think anyone will object to committing it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 27, 2007, 12:19:46 PM
How exactly does the renaming thing work? Does every part of the theme need to have a suffix with the screen dimensions? I couldn't find out much from the source link (http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/wps/iCatcher/).
Still, this theme will make it into every copy of rockbox even if it's not the default one, correct?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on December 30, 2007, 03:45:43 PM
How exactly does the renaming thing work? Does every part of the theme need to have a suffix with the screen dimensions? I couldn't find out much from the source link (http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/wps/iCatcher/).

As far as I know - all the different bitmaps (i.e. icons in different sizes/colours) need unique names so that they can still be referenced correctly when they are stored in one "cabbie2" folder. Of course the already mentioned renamed .wps files will have to use these new bitmap file names. The .cfg files will be made automatically from what someone defines in the WPSLIST file (during the build process). I'm not sure if this one is already prepared for a gradient or coloured line selector, maybe it needs some work beforehand.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 31, 2007, 02:37:31 PM
I'm going to do this for the ipod video version just to see how it goes. When it's uploaded, can someone check if it's done properly?

EDIT: I added a table row thing for renaming on the wiki and *attempted* to rename the ipod video default version (not unifont yet). Can someone who knows how all this works tell me if it's ok and also can someone bug check it on a sim or the real device? I just added a "-screenize" after each file unique to the ipod video (all wps image files, wps folder, wps file, backdrop) but I didn't do it for the theme file (was I supposed to?).

Also, if the gigabeat version uses the same size icons (not sure right now), would it be allright to link up to the 320 screen size files and copy over the video wps images into the gigabeat version?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 31, 2007, 03:12:37 PM
no, the gigabeat version uses different icons. nearly all versions should have different icons because the gradient surrounding the icons should match the gradient of the backdrop.

btw, should the bitmaps be 16bit? rockbox can only display up to 16bit, but the 24 bit graphics look way better on the screen than real 16bit graphics.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 31, 2007, 03:26:08 PM
ZincAlloy: I didn't think of that at all. That actually makes it a whole lot easier! I'm not sure about the 16 bit or 24 bit thing.

pixelma: Can you check out the naming of the whole theme itself to make sure that it's proper?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 31, 2007, 04:02:02 PM
should the graphics be named ....320x240x16.bmp or ...320x240x24.bmp, since the graphics are 24 bit? they're made for 16 bit targets, though...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on December 31, 2007, 05:07:08 PM
Wouldn't 16 bit graphics make more sense since they'll use less RAM?  I don't think theres any advantage to using 24 bit on a 16 bit screen anyway.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 31, 2007, 05:12:04 PM
Is all of the other naming done properly? ZincAlloy: I think that they should be left as 320x240x16 because that's the actual screen size and it's a 16 bit screen... and I'm pretty sure that if they're left as 320x240x24 it would do no benefit and maybe it won't even compile properly?

Also, how would one find out whether or not the images are 16 or 24 bit and would 24 bit images be "accepted" because of the ram and size issued?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 31, 2007, 05:13:27 PM
there is an advantage to 24 bit graphics, they look way better. the gradients are smooth. compare these:
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on December 31, 2007, 05:16:37 PM

there is an advantage to 24 bit graphics, they look way better. the gradients are smooth. compare these:

Not all colour targets have a 24 bit screen.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on December 31, 2007, 05:17:25 PM
The screens you're using are 16-bit. So 24-bit graphics can't actually look better on target. In fact, I'm pretty sure graphics are stored in framebuffer format once loaded to RAM (which is also 16-bit) meaning that the only advantage is really disk space.

That second png shows signs of dithering, something that could just as easily be done by the program outputting to the 16-bit file, but apparently whatever editor you use didn't dither in the same way Rockbox did.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 31, 2007, 05:23:45 PM
how can I get photoshop to dither as good as rockbox?  ;D
I can reduce the bit depth to 16 bits, but ps won't let me keep the layers when doing so.
I can't find any dithering options when saving as .bmp. odd really. there MUST be options for this...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 31, 2007, 07:46:00 PM
So what players have 24 bit color screens? And do 24 bit images take up more space than 16 bit images? Will we have to convert images from 24 bit to 16 bit ?

Another question so that we can move forward with all this renaming: Did I properly name everything in the ipod video default version? I need to know so that I can continue with the renaming for the other ports.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on December 31, 2007, 08:05:06 PM
I don't even think they make portable 24 bit LCD screens.  24 bit color uses 1.5x the space of 16 bit.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 31, 2007, 08:35:37 PM
We'll just have to see about all this 24 bit versus 16 bit business.

saratoga: Can you check the ipod video normal version (not unifont) to see whether or not the files are named properly?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on December 31, 2007, 09:33:30 PM
http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8385

Viewports are near.

Perhaps the default them should take advantage of them.
At least let's focus the WPS-creating community towards testing them for linuxstb.

Rasher has sims up:
http://rasher.dk/rockbox/viewports/
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 31, 2007, 09:46:30 PM

We'll just have to see about all this 24 bit versus 16 bit business.

saratoga: Can you check the ipod video normal version (not unifont) to see whether or not the files are named properly?


we need to use 16 bit graphics, because rockbox has to dither 24bit graphics down to 16 bit. it's just a  matter of converting them correctly.

your renaming is ok. renaming is only about creating unique filenames for everything. adding the screen dimensions and bit depth to each file name does the trick.


http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8385

Viewports are near.

Perhaps the default them should take advantage of them.
At least let's focus the WPS-creating community towards testing them for linuxstb.

Rasher has sims up:
http://rasher.dk/rockbox/viewports/



no need to use them just because we have them. some text positions could use a tiny bit of tweaking, ok. and viewports would allow to define an area in which scrolling would work, so that the right border of the text would be aligned to the richt border of the "now playing" bar, but that's only minor tweaks.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on December 31, 2007, 10:05:57 PM
Perhaps I'm just a bit ignorant, but what exactly is this viewports thing? Is it just a way to make text on the wps screen aligned with x and y coordinates like the wps images?

ZincAlloy: Most ports really won't be needing Viewports because of the proper alignment of most text on most ports, but some of them can make the gap between the Next: line and the track name smaller and give them more room to breathe, but they're good as is right now...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 01, 2008, 10:26:43 AM
yeah...

In the meantime I managed to dither the graphics to 8 bit with PS. 16 seems impossible with PS. Same with Gimpshop. I'll look trough more software later today.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 01, 2008, 07:14:37 PM
Hmm... there must be a batch image converter for changing from 24 to 16 bit. Try Irfanview maybe? Anyways, ZincAlloy, do you want to rename the rest of the ports?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 01, 2008, 07:18:49 PM
I really don't know if there's any significant benefit to converting them to 16 bit. As I said, they should be converted on load anyway, and leaving them 24-bit makes them more re-usable if a 24-bit target does come along one day.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 01, 2008, 07:23:16 PM
That's what I was thinking... and Llorean, just a question, will you be considering the size of this theme when it will be added to SVN? I mean, like will it be "better" to have less images involved in this theme? I know certain targets like the archos' are better off with less images in the buffer, but will it matter to the final decision as most players don't have such an issue?

Anyways, I poked around with the settings in Irfanview. There is indeed a "Batch Conversion/Rename" feature and there is also a picture depth option (although I'm not sure whether or not it's what we're looking for). A screenshot is attached.

EDIT: And another thing Llorean, do you have any idea when viewports will actually be added to SVN? Some ports could make use of that feature for better text alignment.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 01, 2008, 07:27:01 PM
It's not "less images in the buffer". Rockbox reserves the memories for WPSes either way, so the amount of size used is constant, whether you fill it up or not.

It's "less images to load." It takes longer to load a WPS the more files it has, and this problem affects all targets, though maybe not nearly as noticeable on flash ones, I haven't experimented. If the WPS ends up making Rockbox take a significant amount of time longer to boot, some people will be upset with it.

As it is, it's a lot of people who'll be holding the final discussion, and it's very possible (even maybe likely) that a WPS I don't like will go in. I'm a grumpy chap, but there's plenty of people who'll ignore my complaints anyway. :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 01, 2008, 07:35:56 PM
Llorean, just wondering, do you like the ports for Cabbie 2.0? I would hope so... ;D

And do you have any idea when viewports will be added to SVN?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 01, 2008, 07:39:50 PM
I haven't tried any of them on-player honestly. I don't dislike them, but as I've said, there are things about them that would mean I personally wouldn't use them.

As for viewports, it'll be in SVN when the patch works on all targets and is thoroughly tested, I imagine. Just like anything else.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 01, 2008, 07:43:21 PM
Llorean, what parts of it do you dislike?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 01, 2008, 07:44:46 PM
Well, first and foremost, I hate graphical volume displays. But most of my complaints can be seen earlier in this thread anyway.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 01, 2008, 07:57:15 PM

I really don't know if there's any significant benefit to converting them to 16 bit. As I said, they should be converted on load anyway, and leaving them 24-bit makes them more re-usable if a 24-bit target does come along one day.


not an issue, the original graphics are 24bit files. ports for new targets could always be made in 24bit.

crzy, it's the right menu, but there's no option for 16bit. I think 16bit is a highly unusual format in graphics. In RGB you usually have 8 bits for each channel (8x3=24). 8 bit (256 colors) is the other common standard. Each color needs to be defined afaik.
16bit seemingly uses 5 bits for red and blue and 6 bits to define green, since they human eye is more sensitive for green value than it is for red and blue...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on January 01, 2008, 08:16:23 PM

http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8385

Viewports are near.

Perhaps the default them should take advantage of them.
At least let's focus the WPS-creating community towards testing them for linuxstb.

Rasher has sims up:
http://rasher.dk/rockbox/viewports/



I'd rather go with what we have.  Once viewports are committed and stable, we can certainly look into updating the default theme to take advantage of them.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 01, 2008, 08:21:13 PM
I think this theme doesn't really have a use for viewports, anyway. They'd allow a few different font colors perhaps, but there's really not a significant place for them without a redesign, I think.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 01, 2008, 09:36:16 PM
found a ps plugin that should do the trick: http://www.telegraphics.com.au/sw/  (5/6/5)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on January 01, 2008, 09:45:03 PM
Imagemagick is free (in both senses of the word), and if it can't do it (and do it in batch) I'm a monkey's uncle.
http://www.imagemagick.org/script/index.php
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 01, 2008, 09:52:30 PM
not sure which dithering I like better: left: 5/6/5, right: rockbox


edit: too bad - looks much worse when saved as 16 bit bmp  ???
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 01, 2008, 10:18:32 PM
ZincAlloy, here's my recommendation: forget about the images being 24 bit! They're fine the way they are and will make the end user happier as the graphics being used now are very clean and sleek, unlike the 16 bit ones...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 01, 2008, 10:51:09 PM
true, but ironically the user IS seeing 16bit graphics.

btw, your ports aren't looking clean and sleek...  ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 01, 2008, 10:56:14 PM

Well, first and foremost, I hate graphical volume displays. But most of my complaints can be seen earlier in this thread anyway.

I understand the need at times to have a more precise volume indication, but (correct me when I'm wrong) this is not required all the time. For instance, when using a DAP connected to an in-car system, it might be nice to set the DAP volume to a particular value to prevent clipping. On my target (2nd Gen iPod), this is easily achieved from the WPS with a long click on Select, followed by two regular clicks on Select to get to the Volume menu.

Personally, I tweak the graphics so that the volume setting I need for in-car use is highlighted in some way (a bolder bar for instance). This doesn't give a totally exact level setting, but is adequate to set the level to something close to the maximum before clipping ensues, and eliminates having to remember what level is best for the car.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 02, 2008, 01:58:37 AM
I haven't checked, but does the graphical display at least make use of the ">0" extra conditional entries on every target relevant?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 02, 2008, 03:01:18 AM
I haven't checked them all either, but my port uses
Code: [Select]
%?pv<%xdM|%xdN|%xdO|%xdP|%xdp|%xdq|%xdr|%xds|%xdt> so the last graphic is presented when the volume setting exceeds 0dB.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 02, 2008, 03:04:22 AM
Does the last graphic indicate somehow that it's "More than max", like changing color, or having the rightmost pixels red or something?

Basically, *at* 0 should usually be "full" volume because above 0 is very likely to sound funny or distorted depending on your audio files, and there should be some visual cue that it's not "right" to be there.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on January 02, 2008, 03:16:23 AM

Basically, *at* 0 should usually be "full" volume because above 0 is very likely to sound funny or distorted depending on your audio files, and there should be some visual cue that it's not "right" to be there.


You mean some indication apart from the fact that your ears are bleeding? ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 02, 2008, 03:50:31 AM
The last graphic indicates that it's "More than max" by appearing  ;)

I agree, it's probable that distortion will be present at that point, but I've left it to the user to determine whether or not the distortion is noticeable/acceptable/tolerable.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 02, 2008, 03:59:19 AM
The thing is, some players max at 0dB, and some max at +6 or more. There should be a unique identifier for when you're >0, because otherwise the user has no way of knowing they've passed the "line level" output. 0db is a VERY important value, because if you're hooking up to a line in, it's generally what you should be using, etc. It's important to be able to distinguish it easily, just in general.

There's a unique entry in the conditional for >0, rather than treating it as "more of the same" (evenly divided) specifically because >0 is not the same as <=0.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 04:28:53 AM
ahhhhh, so there IS a use for this one.... didn't know about that. I will add an additional icon later today. for what targets do we need it?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 02, 2008, 04:29:20 AM

There should be a unique identifier for when you're >0, because otherwise the user has no way of knowing they've passed the "line level" output.

This is indicated by the last bar appearing.

Assigning a special colour to it could also be misleading, because a user who cares sufficiently is likely to have set the precut in the graphical equalizer menu to effectively limit the maximum to 0dB, rather than a positive value. In those circumstances, the last bar would still be a 'safe' setting.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 02, 2008, 04:37:52 AM
Setting the precut in an equalizer is not a proper solution to limiting to 0dB. The equalizer is digital gain, the volume is analog gain.

So what you're suggesting doesn't work the way you think it does. And someone who sets the precut KNOWS they've done so. People who can't see the numerical volume have no way of knowing their player goes above Line Level.

Remember, this is for NEW users. Since they can't see +1 and above, they have no way of knowing the last line means something special unless it's graphically different. As it stands, it's just like any other line.

We moved from 0-100% to a dB scale so the numbers can be meaningful. You're intentionally saying "I want to make the volume display less meaningful." Honestly, can you justify WHY special values should NOT be indicated, when they in fact ARE special values?

I mean honestly, how can a new user know that the last bar means anything but "as loud as it gets", when it really means "louder than it gets" in a sense. Especially when on other players, the last bar really DOES just mean "as loud as it gets" because some DO cap at 0dB
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 02, 2008, 04:51:02 AM

Setting the precut in an equalizer is not a proper solution to limiting to 0dB. The equalizer is digital gain, the volume is analog gain.

Isn't limiting via a digital gain setting the ideal? The digital gain block will be before the DAC, so signal integrity is maintained.

Quote
You're intentionally saying "I want to make the volume display less meaningful." Honestly, can you justify WHY special values should NOT be indicated, when they in fact ARE special values?
As I've said, the >0dB case IS indicated. I just don't treat this case as being 'special' as other settings may also have special significance too. One of my cars has an adapter which clips at levels above about -12dB. Another clips at a different level.

Maybe you need to write a detailed spec for your ideal WPS, and we'll have a go at producing Grumpy 1.0  :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 02, 2008, 05:01:41 AM
The 0dB case is NOT indicated for people who don't know it exists.

If our numbers we numbered volume from say, 0 to 50, there would be no way to distinguish that 48, 49, and 50 were above 0dB. The same is true with your graphics. We don't, we number using the actual range of the DAC.

I'm going to say here and now, I'll fight tooth and nail to be sure that the default WPS has a graphical volume display that indicates when you have gone past the "expect clipping" point to a new user. Or rather, I'll fight tooth and nail to see that one that doesn't isn't committed.

As I've said already: NEW USERS. They don't necessarily know about other settings. If they turn up the volume, they should see, IMMEDIATELY, that something is different about volume at this point. That they're over "Full" volume. Because 0dB really is "Full".

Your only justification for not doing it is "I use more complicated settings, which negate this meaning." But if you apply precut, you know about the settings. Why is it bad that the last bar still indicates >0dB analog gain? What HARM comes from actually providing additional useful information?

0dB isn't "when your adapter might clip". 0dB is "line level" which means above it is when your DAP itself might clip.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 02, 2008, 07:31:06 AM
You obviously have a very strong personal view about the 0dB level.
The fix you propose (using the WPS to indicate 0dB+) would require ALL graphical WPS to use this technique.

The method I proposed (pre-cut) could be implemented at the build level for each target, and would be effective regardless of the subsequent WPS selection.

Incidentally, I don't remember seeing any significant forum traffic related to this issue. Is it possible that most don't care or notice clipping?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 08:08:28 AM
We do need an indicator for this. I just made a red volume slider icon. which targets need it?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: scharkalvin on January 02, 2008, 08:12:47 AM
This discussion about volume level in db makes me wonder about something.
Do most DMP devices adjust volume level by scaling the numbers to the D/A converter or do they adjust the gain of an amplifier (or attenuation stage) in the analog audio stages?  If the former, then yes you can cause clipping by presenting numbers greater than 2**16.  If the latter, than there is NO WAY that you can cause clipping unless the output of the D/A stage overdrives the audio chain.
In the latter case though the DB level would apply to what ...  the gain of the amplifier chain?

Adjusting the volume by scaling the D/A value should cause more than clipping, it should also wreak the S/N ratio?  Not to mention that this also depends on how the mp3, ogg, or other codec files were built.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 08:33:43 AM
I think the volume is adjusted by changing an amplifier's gain. you sure can drive an amplifier into clipping...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: scharkalvin on January 02, 2008, 08:44:44 AM
Quote
you sure can drive an amplifier into clipping


Yes, but if the volume indicator in DB shows the gain of the audio channel clipping will only happen if the signal out of the D/A over drives the amplifier.  This won't happen for all source material.  Is there a standard among players as to audio channel gain and signal output from the D/A stage?  Probably not.  (iPods seem to have the greatest signal output,  at least in driving external amplifiers and headphones).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 09:10:41 AM
a volume indicator can't indicate clipping. the clipping indicator of the meter can do this, but that one's for digital level.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on January 02, 2008, 11:15:18 AM

You obviously have a very strong personal view about the 0dB level.
The fix you propose (using the WPS to indicate 0dB+) would require ALL graphical WPS to use this technique.

No - it would require the proposed default WPS to use this technique.


The method I proposed (pre-cut) could be implemented at the build level for each target, and would be effective regardless of the subsequent WPS selection.

Llorean already explained how digital precut is not an ideal solution for analog gain.


Incidentally, I don't remember seeing any significant forum traffic related to this issue. Is it possible that most don't care or notice clipping?

Many of us who care use a WPS with a numerical volume display.  The existing default WPS has a numerical volume display.  Nobody is asking the graphical nature of this WPS to be changed before inclusion as the default WPS (lord knows I'd prefer it that way) - all that is being asked is a simple graphical tweak to indicate an "overdrive" situation.  
Title: Cabbie 2.0 GB icon color and rockbox backdrop GONE
Post by: scharkalvin on January 02, 2008, 11:19:25 AM
I installed the cabbie2.0 theme on my gigabeat.
I tried changing the foreground color (I wanted the
text to be in amber/yellow for better contrast) and
now the icons have lost their color and the rockbox
backdrop on the menu screen is gone.  I tried changing
the foreground color back,  the icons and backdrop are
still gone.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 12:08:14 PM
Quote
true, but ironically the user IS seeing 16bit graphics.

btw, your ports aren't looking clean and sleek...  



ZincAlloy, I would probably get mad after you saying that, but after taking a close look at the ports I did, I think that they need the background images in 24 bit because they really aren't looking sleek and clean ;) If I do that, I'll do some more updates and do the renaming for it.

Another question: Say the unifont version of a theme uses a different background image, should I name it differently, like 320x240x16U or something?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 12:34:50 PM
yeah, only the backgrounds should be enough. the icons are looking ok.

that unifont renaming thing makes sense....
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 12:51:19 PM
I have another question: Should the ipod ports read track, artist, album instead of artist, album, track because most ipod users are accustomed to the track, artist, album order? Or should we maintain uniformity and keep it artist, album, track on all targets?

ZincAlloy: Does the unifont ipod video port use any images that are different from the normal ipod video port?

Also the gigabeat version seems to be using 16 bit graphics as well because the background isn't looking clean and sleek  ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on January 02, 2008, 12:56:09 PM
Are you all judging the "sleekness" of the dithering on target or on the simulator?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 12:57:38 PM
I'm judging by the screendumps on the defaultwps wiki page...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 12:58:53 PM
no, the images are the same.
I'm all for uniformity. Maybe we should change the order on all targets? I've been thinking about that before. any opinions?
Having the song title first does make most sense, but the current order feels just right as well. that's why I haven't tried to change it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 12:59:44 PM
I just tested out the nano port on my actual ipod nano and there seems to be no problem with the clean and sleek thing on the actual device...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 01:00:44 PM
ok... compared it to a "sleeker" one?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 01:13:30 PM
Actually, I just discovered that the old images were 24 bit as well, so the simulator just does that I'm guessing?

And we need to come to a settlement on the volume issue and the information order issue...

I'm renaming/updating the c200 version right now.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 01:15:34 PM
no, the simulator doesn't do this. I'm using simulators as well.
odd, really...


as for the vol. icon issue: we need another icon. I made one, but I couldn't find out which ports can go over 0 dB *in my best Nigel Tufnel voice* These go to eleven!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 01:16:35 PM
How about this: I'll update the actual files and you take the screendumps for them?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 01:19:10 PM
for which wps's do we need new screendumps?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 01:27:53 PM
I think I figured out why my screendumps are messed up... I use paint to convert the .bmp screendumps to .png and there is a loss of quality in the screendumps...

Stupid Microsoft!  >:(
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 01:34:41 PM
:) ok, this explains everything. I don't even have paint on my windows partition.

I'll make the screendumps and do some renaming tonight.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Febs on January 02, 2008, 02:00:54 PM
as for the vol. icon issue: we need another icon. I made one, but I couldn't find out which ports can go over 0 dB *in my best Nigel Tufnel voice* These go to eleven!


Here's what we have in the source code for the manual for the various platforms:

Archos Player:  minimum of -78 dB to a maximum of +18 dB
Archos Recorder, Recorderv2fm, Ondio:  minimum of -100 dB to a maximum of +12 dB
iriver h1xx,h300: minimum of -84 dB to a maximum of 0 dB
iPod Nano:  minimum of -72 dB to a maximum of +6 dB
Ipod Video:  minimum of -57 dB to a maximum of +6 dB
iAudio x5:  minimum of -73 dB to a maximum of +6 dB
iPod Color, iriver h10, Sansa:  minimum of -74 dB to a maximum of +6 db
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 02:09:33 PM
I just did the renaming for both versions (normal and unifont) for the ipod video port and the c200 port. I'll be busy for the next 2 or so days so I'm counting on you ZincAlloy to rename the rest of the ports!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 03:09:00 PM
haha, that was bad luck. I own the only target that doesn't go to eleven.

Thank you, Febs!

crzy, I'll do my best!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 02, 2008, 05:44:08 PM
Doh. I just reread my early morning posts re pre-cut and realize that it's a BAD solution.

The iPod1G2G falls into the -74dB to +6dB range group.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to indicate the >0dB volume situation on the greyscale targets?  Red is fine for you lucky colour target people, but using a different shade of grey just doesn't have the same impact.

I've included a picture showing the current volume icons (upper 3 on the left), with a first attempt at the new set on the right. In both cases the >0dB icon is at the top. There are another two possible >0dB options at the bottom.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 05:58:43 PM
I like the one with the exclamation mark "!"  ;D
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 06:11:50 PM
seconded!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 02, 2008, 06:15:05 PM
Conceptually it's the same as "having the last bit red" and the exclamation mark does a good job of saying "This is a bad color", since Gray isn't exactly as commonly used for hazards as red. :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 02, 2008, 06:27:34 PM
Okay, I'll update with that one :)

I was also wondering about the relative order of Artist, Track and Album ... personally I like Track, Artist then Album (or Track, Album then Artist)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 06:53:54 PM
yapper: That's something that still needs to be decided. I personally prefer track, artist, album, too and the ipod nano port has this order right now.

ZincAlloy and others: What do you think about this?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 06:56:34 PM
everybody should try it for a day before we meet a decision. It's a matter of feel that needs to be experienced in everyday situations
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on January 02, 2008, 07:27:14 PM
/me always prefers What by Who from Which
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 07:48:58 PM
I just renamed and uploaded the c200 version. Remember that these new renamed versions will always need thorough bug testing!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Yotto on January 02, 2008, 08:43:03 PM
I'm not officially involved in this, but I'll always offer my opinion. I always put it Track, Artist, Album. If I used a WPS that someone else made that was different, I'd probably change it.

Here's a thought: Make sure it's easily changeable (It is right now, each just sits on a single line), and that could be the first "WPS tutorial"
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 08:54:01 PM
wps tutorial...... nice idea......
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 02, 2008, 09:03:21 PM
Track, Artist, Album seems to be a common choice. Does this also make sense for audiobooks?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 02, 2008, 09:08:19 PM
Audiobooks make more sense as Track, Album, Artist (assuming "Track" has useful data, people split audiobooks in strange ways). But due to the haphazard possibilities tagging audiobooks, and the wide range from "1 file per book" to "1 file per chapter" to "1 file per 5 minutes", naming beyond "Artist" and "Album" is often inconsistent anyway.

I'd say not to worry about them too much in this case, and stick with Track, Artist, Album
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 02, 2008, 09:12:33 PM
Ok. Nobody seems to like it as it is. We'll change it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Yotto on January 02, 2008, 10:15:38 PM

wps tutorial...... nice idea......

I've actually had the idea since this thread began. Take the new default WPS and document how to make changes to it. Start simple (Like modify track/album/artist) and move up to more advanced topics until you're making your own WPS, but always start with the default WPS that a new user is probably using anyway.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 02, 2008, 10:25:42 PM
So now it's decided? It will be track, artist, album for all ports? I'll modify as many as I can...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 03, 2008, 07:35:21 AM
What text needs to go in the "header" of the .wps file? Currently I have:
Code: [Select]
# cabbie 2.0 default
# 160*128 greyscale port by Mark Fawcus (yapper)
# works with 64*64 album art if present
# (C) 2007, Johannes Voggenthaler (Zinc Alloy)
# derived from "cabbie" (C) Yohann Misquitta

and I'm not sure if it's correct/acceptable ...

And what is the 'official' name? Cabbie 2.0?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 03, 2008, 07:59:41 AM
looks good to me.
I called it Cabbie 2.0 default - 2.1 would have been more appropriate, though
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crash91 on January 03, 2008, 08:19:48 AM

/me always prefers What by Who from Which


I agree, like the default display in Rhythmbox, but pity DAP screens arent wide enough :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MaW on January 03, 2008, 12:23:05 PM
In the absence of that, I'd also agree with

Track
Artist
Album

It's a bit of least-surprise for people used to other firmwares too. At least there's a path for people who want a different order to have it the way they like with Rockbox :)

I've been using Cabbie 2.0 default on my iPod Video for a few weeks now, and I really like it graphically. The font's not brilliant, but that's been done to death already and I know getting decent fonts isn't easy for this sort of display.

Ideally it could do with some multifont love on the WPS, but obviously we can't have that until some sort of multifontish system is in trunk.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 03, 2008, 12:49:00 PM
is anybody currently working on this: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/FontSystemProposal ?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 03, 2008, 02:23:57 PM
Considering that page being dated "27 May" as the most recent update, and the fact that I don't recall ever seeing anyone discussing it (which doesn't mean it wasn't, it just means it was low enough volume to entirely pass me by), I would go with "Probably nobody." I imagine it turned out to not be efficient enough (or would've upon testing, if it didn't get that far).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 03, 2008, 04:11:37 PM
I'm going to add a new check or x thing to the wiki for "track, artist, album" listing...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: P33KAJ3W on January 04, 2008, 08:25:19 PM
Trying to use the Default theme for the Sansa c250v1 and the spacing seems to be off (Unicode works gr8) - Is it my end or is it the code (I suck at reading .wps files or I would try to correct it)

Thanks for any help you can give.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 04, 2008, 08:27:23 PM
I recently renamed the c200 version and I will bug check it in the simulator. It'd be nice if you could tell me exactly which spacing is off and maybe even post a screenshot?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: P33KAJ3W on January 04, 2008, 09:05:43 PM
From the album art to the words to the right of it

I wish I had my Dig Cam on me but I am at work

Its like twice as far over as it needs to be (the text is)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 04, 2008, 10:37:14 PM
just make a screendump
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: P33KAJ3W on January 05, 2008, 12:34:35 AM
How?

NVM - Here

(http://www.maj.com/gallery/P33KAJ3W/Banners/dump_080104-213641.bmp)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on January 05, 2008, 06:20:05 AM
(1)  In the last downloadable c200.zip version the left margin for when there is album art present is set to "105", looking at the unicode version it seems that it should be "48" (and no, I don't have an old version lying around here and just installed the theme the first time on my c200).

I'm not completely sure who uploaded the latest version (I think crzyboyster did) but the zip also contains those annoying thumbs.db files...

(2)  Regarding the volume icon for "above line level": I also want to see it - as long as this theme only uses a graphical volume display, everything should be done to make this as informative as possible. In my own theme I use a numerical volume display and I really really missed it during my work on the Archos version. I could imagine it to be a bit like the battery charging and power icons - something shown inside the fully filled volume "triangle", especially for greyscale/mono displays (yapper's exclamation mark variant would also be a good alternative).

(3)  And for my first impression of the c200 version on the target... I don't like the font. While it is bigger than Nimbus-10 for example it is less readable - this first part is a bit personal taste - but:  the gap at the lower part of the screen in the menus/browsers that results from the 12-pixels tall font not being the best choice for a 80 pixels high display (6 lines of text + 8 pixels high space of nothing) is weird. It is very obvious because there are so few lines and in my eyes it makes it look a bit unprofessional.

I also dislike the absence of the statusbar outside the WPS; even though it doesn't look very nice, it is full of information I like taking a look at from time to time. By the way: enabling it would exactly fill out the gap mentioned above...

Edit: Additionally it seems like some of the icons in the WPS aren't scaled as clean as it could be, for example the pause icon (see previous post).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 05, 2008, 11:26:04 AM
pixelma: (1) I checked this out on the sim last night and discovered it, too. I'm going to upload a fixed version by tonight. Also, those annoying thumbs.db files should be disabled on my computer (they could've been generated on other peoples' computers and then remained in the zip). We'll eventually get rid of them...

(2)(3) Actually, pixelma, I was going to use the sazanami 11 font (I think), but I eventually thought that the "feel" of the port may be changed. I can go back to that font if you want.

Read my previous post:


I just added the better repeat icons to the nano and x5/h10 versions. I'm going to finish up the c200 version, but I need to know which font to use.

does this one look better?:
(http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10030.0;attach=2413;image)

or this one?:
(http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10030.0;attach=2385;image)

(the only difference is supposed to be the font, so just judge the font).

Also, can you look at my repeat icons real quick and tell me if they're ok?

pixelma: whatever happened to your archos version?


I will enable the statusbar on the next upload.

And what are you saying about the icons not being as clean as possible? Pretty much all of the ports' icons are like that! I think that you mean the little light yellow line going down on the middle of the pause icon. I'll try and take care of that, too.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: P33KAJ3W on January 05, 2008, 05:14:32 PM
With the font the Narrower the better! - The first one looks better to me but I am more concerned about having room to read.


Also What is the Art size? I guessed 40x40 pixels and I think I was right but I wanted to make sure...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 05, 2008, 06:23:01 PM
Yes, the album art is 40x40. And I'm now using the sazanami 11 font.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: P33KAJ3W on January 05, 2008, 06:44:06 PM
Cool let me know when it is up...

I love the Status bar (Numerical Bat Power and Volume are the best.)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 05, 2008, 07:35:06 PM
New version is up along with new screenshots. Tell me about amy other bugs that pop up.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: P33KAJ3W on January 05, 2008, 07:49:46 PM
Loaded - Awesome!

M's and W's Look odd in that font but I love how much I can see
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 05, 2008, 08:37:17 PM
Yeah, I like how it turned out, too. I think that the small font goes well with the small screen and icons. And yeah, for some odd reason the m's and w's are messed up, but this font also supports some chinese/japanese/korean fonts, but I still made a unifont version.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ilikedirt on January 05, 2008, 11:19:00 PM
I think on the Gigabeat the Icons on the bottom are too large in comparison with the rest. On the iPod it looks more fitting because the progress bar is bigger. I really think they should be smaller ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 05, 2008, 11:21:37 PM
I think that the progessbar should be enlarged on the gigabeat version (same height as ipod video port). Actually, the gigabeat version has been unupdated for a while now  ;) I'll try and take care of it soon.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 06, 2008, 01:22:02 AM
The Gigabeat version is not the same size as the iPod Video port. One's 320x240, the other's 240x320
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 06, 2008, 08:31:11 AM
yeah, it needs to be higher, not wider.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 06, 2008, 12:35:36 PM
I'm working on the e200 version and it seems pretty messed up... I have to make the album art size from 120x120 to 100x100 in order for it all to fit and I'm now using new backgrounds and progressbar.

pixelma: Are you going to be doing the archos port? Will you make the vol9 icon so that we can do the renaming for it?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 06, 2008, 01:09:57 PM
why? the graphics for the e200 are alright. I was the last one who worked on that port.
and it always worked with 120x120 album art...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 06, 2008, 03:18:35 PM
ZincAlloy: Load up the current version of the e200 version on a sim and check out what happens with 120x120 album art...

Anyways, I'm pretty much finished with it using 110x110 album art and I updated a lot of it...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 06, 2008, 04:20:23 PM
nothing out of the ordinary. you removed two lines when you renamed the files, that's all that went wrong. This is what it's supposed to look like.
I still don't get what's wrong with the background and the progress bar
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 06, 2008, 04:45:06 PM
Wow! I didn't realize that at all. From looking at that screenshot, the time remaining and track number are kind of squished with the icons. Here's what I came up with now. Tell me what you think.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 06, 2008, 04:51:59 PM
not much room to breathe, but I think it was entirely OK as it was. Viewports will improve the situation. I'll rearrange everything on this one as soon as they are supported.

I think you're wasting a whole line with your new version.
And you progress bar isn't wide enough.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 06, 2008, 05:03:14 PM
That's a good point... I'm going to make the album art 120x120 again and push the last line down to where it was before. And you can make the progressbar wider, right?  ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 06, 2008, 05:07:41 PM
what was wrong with the old progress bar (the one in my screenshot)?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 06, 2008, 05:31:18 PM
Viewports will improve the situation.

Very true! It will make it so much easier to position fields precisely without being tied to text appearing on 'preset lines' :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on January 06, 2008, 05:33:45 PM
Again, maybe late to the party, but making the "Now Playing" bar also be the progress bar frees up a full line (or allows a larger font).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 06, 2008, 05:50:55 PM
soap: What exactly are you trying to say? I don't really understand that...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on January 06, 2008, 06:10:30 PM

Again, maybe late to the party, but making the "Now Playing" bar also be the progress bar frees up a full line (or allows a larger font).



I'd disagree with that, if I understand what you're saying (making the progress bar say "now playing" and getting rid of the one at the top?). I think the now playing bar looks very classy, and should be kept if possible. I actually prefer this to having potentially larger album art, but I'm probably not the one to make the decision, since I don't even use the player we're discussing. All in all, I like the way zinc's screendump looks best. Having the time and track stuff above the progress bar makes all the text looked too cluttered together.

Also, just wanted to thank you guys for a great theme, I'm using the ipod video version and it's quite classy. I would have voted for keeping the track info order as Artist-Title-Album, but it looks like most people prefer it the other way anyway. It will be relatively easy to edit that order myself if I really want to, right?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on January 06, 2008, 06:18:02 PM
pixelma: Are you going to be doing the archos port? Will you make the vol9 icon so that we can do the renaming for it?

Yes, I'd planned to make it tomorrow.

As for the new font in the c200 version - have to take a look on the real display before giving critics but judged by the screenshots I'm sceptical...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 06, 2008, 07:23:20 PM

It will be relatively easy to edit that order myself if I really want to, right?


sure, you only need to swap two lines in the .wps file.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 06, 2008, 08:11:14 PM
pixelma: I tryed to pick the best font possible for the c200 theme and I think it really "flows" well. It looks big enough to be easily visible. Be sure to tell me what you think about it after trying it out on the actual device.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 06, 2008, 08:40:04 PM
If helvR was suboptimal, the one you're currently using must be even more so.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on January 06, 2008, 08:59:18 PM

soap: What exactly are you trying to say? I don't really understand that...


look at the cabbie theme on the e200 series. that theme does what soap is talking about.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 06, 2008, 09:01:54 PM
I see what you mean. I don't think that it would really look good on this theme.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on January 06, 2008, 09:13:15 PM
Exactly - as can be seen in my personal Cabbie with Album Art.
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8237/screenshotsansae2003rt1.th.png) (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotsansae2003rt1.png)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 06, 2008, 09:40:14 PM
Neat - wish I'd thought of that!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 06, 2008, 09:49:25 PM
So...are you guys saying that it's a good idea or a bad idea?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 06, 2008, 09:57:04 PM
I'm saying it's a very good way to free up one extra line .... but it'll be a lot of work to amend all the targets.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on January 06, 2008, 10:10:27 PM
Have all the themes been renamed so that they can go into one combined zip?  If not, could I get a list of ones that have been renamed?

I'd like to get ready to commit the work in progress version of this theme so that more people get a chance to look at it.  Then as its refined we can update it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 06, 2008, 10:18:12 PM
Well, I think that the now playing bar and the progressbar should remain seperate so that the theme really "flows" because there will be two equal focal points on the screen that way.

saratoga: According to the wiki page (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DefaultWPS), all of the ports except the archos version (which pixelma will do tomorrow) have been renamed properly.

I think that the ipod video port, x5/h10 20gb, ipod nano, h10 5/6gb, ipod mini, ipod 1st-4th gen and the c200 ports are pretty much ready to go.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 06, 2008, 10:24:53 PM
Well, I think that the now playing bar and the progressbar should remain seperate so that the theme really "flows" because there will be two equal focal points on the screen that way.

I agree. I just knocked up a quick rework and without re-arranging lots it does become visually unbalanced. The combined 'now playing' and progress bar is probably best saved for another theme.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on January 06, 2008, 10:35:20 PM


It will be relatively easy to edit that order myself if I really want to, right?


sure, you only need to swap two lines in the .wps file.


Sweet, I thought so.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 06, 2008, 10:40:40 PM
saratoga: Are you seriously considering commiting some ports of the theme? I think that the ipod video port would be best for this purpose as it looks great and is very well refined and most users use an ipod video, so it would get lots of bug checks in the process.


EDIT: I just made some bug fixes to the ipod video port. It seems to be very elegant and polished right now (with now bugs visible on the simulator). It seems to be the best canidate right now for commiting.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pondlife on January 07, 2008, 06:22:29 AM
I'm VERY late to this, and will admit to not having read all 43 pages (besides a search), so hope this hasn't already been debated, but...

I'd prefer the status icons to be at the top of the WPS, mainly because that's where the status bar lives.  (Going forward, with viewports, I'd like to see this moved to the status bar, with the time instead of the rockbox logo and a a disk activity icon.)

Anyone else agree/disagree?

Oherwise I really like this theme, and am using on H300 with nimbus-12.fnt (which is as small as my eyesight will allow).

pondlife
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on January 07, 2008, 06:27:43 AM
I actually prefer them where they are currently.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on January 07, 2008, 06:44:29 AM
I too prefer them at the bottom, but think the gigabeat ones are perhaps a little large compared to the font.  Nonetheless, good work everyone!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Yotto on January 07, 2008, 11:34:45 AM

I'd prefer the status icons to be at the top of the WPS, mainly because that's where the status bar lives.  (Going forward, with viewports, I'd like to see this moved to the status bar, with the time instead of the rockbox logo and a a disk activity icon.)

That sounds like 2 more chapters of the WPS tutorial :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 07, 2008, 04:36:49 PM
Actually, I like everything where it is right now as well. I think that the theme itself is done and ready to go.

Interestingly, I read this on the front page:

Quote
Add viewport capabilities to all the LCD drivers, and adapt scrolling code. This is the firmware/ part of FS #8385 - the changes to the WPS code still need more work and will be committed at a later date. NOTE: There are no user-visible changes with this commit - just the infrastructure.


So here's my question: Does this mean that we can add viewport capabilities into ports that need it before committing them?

And I will be packaging all of the ports into one zip and preparing screenshots for them as required by http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SubmitWPS

And will this really need to go in the tracker or can it just be put on the wiki page?


EDIT: The renaming on some of the ports is still a bit off. I'm updating those right now.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 07, 2008, 06:10:15 PM
I'd prefer the status icons to be at the top of the WPS, mainly because that's where the status bar lives.

I prefer the status information at the bottom, as it seems the 'natural' place. This might be due to many OSs using the bottom for status display, also many TV channels display time/weather/stock tickers in this area. Maybe the status bar should be moved to the bottom? ;)

crzyboyster: the 'final' version of Viewports may be some time in being completed, so for the purposes of Cabbie 2, it's probably best to forget viewports, particularly as the WPS part hasn't been commited yet.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 07, 2008, 06:42:50 PM
We really don't need viewports, but some ports can be optimized with them after they are committed. I think that the theme is pretty much finished.


EDIT: I'm going to start combining them into one zip soon after taking screenshots of the finished versions.

Meanwhile, is there anything else that needs to be done or does anyone have any suggestions before I officially "end" this project?

And I should mention that ZincAlloy is currently busy for this week and isn't available for help or the final steps. He has given me permission to keep on going with this theme.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on January 07, 2008, 11:15:19 PM
I looked at the WPS stuff yesterday very briefly.  It looks like you add an entry for your theme to the WPSLIST file (i believe thats what its called) and then at compile time it checks the resolution of your target and picks the right files for the screen based on the file names.  So I guess the next step is to put everything into a single zip like the included rockbox themes and then test it by compiling a build and checking to see if the theme still works once its compiled.

Has anyone put the files into one large zip yet?  If not, I'll try and get a chance to look at it tomorrow.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on January 08, 2008, 01:20:23 AM
Just downloaded the newer version of the theme, and it's looking great. In terms of looks, I think the only thing that seems less polished than it could be is the volume slider... the icon looks great, but would it be possible to add in even more icons to aid in even smoother transitions when adjusting the volume? It might not make sense in ports to smaller screens, but I think the ipod video version could definitely benefit from the added frames. Everything else is looking really smooth, I'm excited for this upcoming adoption as the default!

EDIT: Another thing I was wondering... if this becomes the default theme, could the regular splash screen at startup be reworked to have the dark gradient in the background instead of the white that is used currently? The dark background looks really good with the usb graphic that shows up when I plug in my ipod, and I think it would also look really cool behind the Rockbox logo, further adding to the uniformity of the theme itself as the default. Doable? Anyone else feel the same?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on January 08, 2008, 02:48:22 AM

Just downloaded the newer version of the theme, and it's looking great. In terms of looks, I think the only thing that seems less polished than it could be is the volume slider... the icon looks great, but would it be possible to add in even more icons to aid in even smoother transitions when adjusting the volume? It might not make sense in ports to smaller screens, but I think the ipod video version could definitely benefit from the added frames. Everything else is looking really smooth, I'm excited for this upcoming adoption as the default!


Though this might be technically possible, the more images the WPS has to load, the longer it takes to display. If this is to become the *default* WPS at some point, we don't want people having to wait an age before it shows up for the first time. Currently I think we have a good trade off in terms of speed / prettiness. If it's not good enough for you personally, then by all means add more images to a version that only you use - but we don't want more in the candidate for default WPS.

Quote

EDIT: Another thing I was wondering... if this becomes the default theme, could the regular splash screen at startup be reworked to have the dark gradient in the background instead of the white that is used currently? The dark background looks really good with the usb graphic that shows up when I plug in my ipod, and I think it would also look really cool behind the Rockbox logo, further adding to the uniformity of the theme itself as the default. Doable? Anyone else feel the same?


This would be well outside the scope of a new theme since it would require actual code changes as well as WPS/Theme file editing. It's certainly something we could look into though.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on January 08, 2008, 02:56:43 AM
I cant remember if I've asked this already (or if someone has actually fixed this yet...) but that post about asking for moreee volume icons reminded me of this...

can it be fixed so we have a 0dB and a >0dB icon? something that is obvious like a red bar or something?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 08, 2008, 07:33:36 AM
The >0dB condition has been covered by using a red bar for colour targets, and the mono/greyscales show a '!'
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: linuxstb on January 08, 2008, 08:28:01 AM
I'm also late, and haven't read all 43 pages, but agree with Pondlife about the statusbar - it just seems wrong to have it at the bottom...

When Rockbox has the ability to theme the status bar, is the intention that this theme would locate the main statusbar at the bottom of the screen as well, to match the WPS?  It's this inconsistency that I don't like.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on January 08, 2008, 01:01:35 PM
To be fair, it seems the vast majority of rockbox themes have their status icons all over the place in any given theme. I'd say that this placement is excellent at least in the sense that every icon is on the same line (not that I dislike any theme that places them on different lines, but doing it this way allows for one line of larger icons over two lines of half-sized icons, for example).

But that's probably not what you're referring to. You would like the icons to be along the top, like the main menu statusbar? I suppose it would be nice o see a screenshot, but I don't think it would looks as good. Currently the theme has a good amount of images that surround the text (now playing on top, album art on the left, icons on the bottom). Placing the icons on top would make the top and left look overly cluttered, and it would probably look like all the images were just pushing the text out of the way, even though that's the most important part of the WPS. I just don't think it makes sense.

You do have an extremely valid point that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have the main menu statusbar at the top, and the WPS statusbar at the bottom. However, they currently look so different that I hardly even associate them with each other. Because of that, the inconsistency hasn't been that big a deal. However, I was hoping too to have that statusbar be skinned, so it's definitely a concern for future implementations of rockbox if it turns out to be that big of a deal. In my opinion, the fact that you can turn off the statusbar on the main menu negates its importance somewhat. I personally almost never use it, except perhaps to quickly check the time. I also value the menu space to see all of my songs and options, so even if it was skinned, I'd probably prefer to keep it small, and out of the way. Honestly, unless I saw a really excellent way to implement it, I think the best themed statusbar in the main menu would be right where it is, in the same size, but slightly nicer looking. If it really needed to be consistent, it could be placed at the bottom of the screen instead of the top, but how about an option of where to place that statusbar instead (top, bottom, left, right)? If that were to be implemented by someone, then there would be no inconsistency at all, for any theme. People with their WPS statusbars could place their main menu statusbar wherever made sense for them. This is out of the scope of this project, I know, but I'm just thinking about the future, and making a case for the icons to be on the bottom. I think they belong there.

Sorry for talking everyone's face off...

EDIT: just to be clear, my suggestion for an option for placing the statusbar at the top/bottom/sides of the screen was referring to the main menu bar, and not the cabbie bar. Hence why I said it would be out of the scope of this project. Hope that won't confuse anybody.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: P33KAJ3W on January 08, 2008, 03:35:35 PM
Like it as is
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on January 08, 2008, 03:56:55 PM
I knocked this up at lunch time as an example of what it would look like with the icons at the top. I decided to leave the obvious difference in the gradient to try to break it up a bit more - but I still think it looks way too top heavy. I prefer the original.

(http://godeater.cream.org/icons_at_top_cabbieipodaa.png)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on January 08, 2008, 04:02:53 PM
Oh dear.  I had been in the at the bottom camp, but I prefer GodEater's mockup, especially the differentiated bar
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 08, 2008, 04:09:11 PM
BigBambi: What exactly do you like about it at the top?

I personally consider the theme right now flattering the way it is and it displays all the necessary information without being too cluttered. I definitely prefer the statusbar (icons) on the bottom because in GodEater's screenshots, the theme with icons on top simply looks too unbalanced and "heavy"as GodEater himself mentioned...maybe I've just looked at the current version too much and am now used to it...

EDIT: I'm going to put them in one zip and place that zip on the wiki (or the tracker, if you wish, but wiki seems more convenient) There are still some more bug fixes/ optimizations that I will try and take care of by tonight, and then I will put together one file...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on January 08, 2008, 04:14:24 PM
I don't know really, I just think it looks better :)

Either way I'm not too bothered, I like both and it is never going to be everybodies favourite.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 08, 2008, 04:17:11 PM
Just remember, the goal is to make a good first impression and for rockbox to look like what it is: cool, fun, and functional. This theme does it all and if it doesn't float your boat, go ahead and install some alternate wps' (there's plenty of them available!)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on January 08, 2008, 04:19:30 PM
well in that case the status icons should definatly be at the top of the screen... you dont want to confuse new users...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 08, 2008, 04:24:20 PM
I'm completely opposed to that. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but this would mean that all of the info would have to be bumped down and this theme would feel "unbalanced" on most ports. I can't really explain this, but it just doesn't seem to appeal to me.

And how would new users be confused by the location of the status icons? They have eyes and can reason that the icons at the bottom of the wps screen are supposed to be the status icons like in the menus...

And sorry, I didn't try and come off as mean or rude, I was just trying to argue my case out...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LinusN on January 08, 2008, 04:44:01 PM
I think we will soon be able to theme the status bar, and then we can make it look the same in all screens, be it at the top or the bottom.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on January 08, 2008, 05:01:48 PM
I just updated the Archos version and uploaded it to the wiki; didn't rename it but moved title up above artist and added the "above 0dB" volume icon (sorry don't have that much time this week). Still I'm not sure about the shared "next song info/playlist position line" - shouldn't the playlist position info be always visible and then maybe in the middle of the line with time info? But if so, what could the "next song info" line show in the large part from beginning of the song until the info is available? ---

About the status bar position: I think I prefer the WPS status bar at the bottom too (judged by the overall impression) but the other version has the advantage that the icons can't clash with the time.

People who think that GodEater's version looks too heavy - has someone tried with a weightier font? I guess part of the problem is the quite light font and it doesn't fit to the large icons, maybe it's become more obvious in the "statusbar at top" version.  (I'd still prefer Nimbus fonts which are more bold - as you can tell, it seems important to me).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 08, 2008, 05:12:34 PM
pixelma: I'll rename the archos port...


EDIT: I just finished renaming all of the archos port! It seems as if we're done unless there are more things to fix.

pixelma: Can you download the new version of the archos port and check if it's working fine? I renamed pretty much every bitmap to have the same base filename as all of the other ports. Tell me about any bugs you may find.


EDIT2: Taking new screendumps for all ports and bug checking!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pondlife on January 10, 2008, 07:56:34 AM
Predictably, I prefer GodEater's mockup!  Just because I'm a consistency freak.

But I'm happy to have this committed either way, as the current default WPS is so sucky.  We can work on a consistent status bar afterwards (and a consistent "top or bottom" option I guess).

pondlife
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 10, 2008, 12:41:41 PM
I like Godeater's mockup too, but maybe with viewports someone will implement an easier way to make its position readily switchable, or something. I see no reason why "we all think it looks better that way" to hold it out at least, since it's obviously "good enough" for now either way.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 10, 2008, 05:47:19 PM
Hey everybody! I finally decided to compile this theme into one zip along with screenshots! It's now on the patch tracker, ready for implementation when it's ready to be added.

http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8443
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: sruchris on January 13, 2008, 10:16:29 PM
Here's my quick mod of the cabbie theme.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on January 14, 2008, 02:46:09 AM
Are you intending to submit this as an alternative default theme ?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: terrence1019 on January 14, 2008, 03:53:18 AM

Here's my quick mod of the cabbie theme.


hey! not bad!  :D
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: jmsunlinenet on January 15, 2008, 04:14:40 PM
As a retail-end user who asked for a better default theme some months ago, I am extremely impressed with the work that has been done so far and think that the various versions of Cabbie 2.0 are a vast improvement.  I would think that for many non technically minded users this would be the only theme they would want or need.

I am currently running a version of Cabbie 2.0 and the only modification I have made is to add a line that says :
Battery time: 10 hrs 30 mins (or whatever) at the top, because I find that when you are traveling, like going on a car journey, or waiting for a plane in an airport it is useful to know how much time you have left relative to the journey, and while the graphic gives a rough guide, it is vague. [Anyhow, that is just me].

Overall the putative default screen seems excellent and displays Rockbox to advantage.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on January 15, 2008, 09:53:25 PM
I received this email from a fellow named Ken not long ago:

"Hello (Fellow Canadian) Marc,
I've downloaded and installed the Cabbie 2.0 theme and noticed a small glitch.
The shuffle icon in the wpsbackdrop-176x220x16.bmp file is "turned on" instead of "off".
I've attached a corrected file for you.  Use it if you'd like."

To which I replied that although my name was attached to the file in the wiki, it wasn't actually my work and that he should come here and tell somebody about it... Which I guess he didn't... So I fixed the backdrop file (which he was so kind to fix himself and mail me) in the .zip and re-uploaded it to the e200 WPS page, FYI.

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 15, 2008, 09:55:00 PM
Awesome! I will update the complete zip on the tracker as soon as possible. And if any other updates are made to any of the ports, definitely post them in this thread as I will probably overlook them.


EDIT: Is the background image for the wps screen supposed to look like the image attached? I thought that all it was supposed to have was a greyed out shuffle and repeat icon?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 16, 2008, 04:20:26 AM
yes, it should only have greyed out shuffle and reapeat icons.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 16, 2008, 04:31:22 PM
Fixed version now up. Also going to update the complete zip on the tracker.

Can anyone bug check it so that I know it's working well?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 16, 2008, 06:01:01 PM
the bars should be wider (just like they used to be). who broke that? I believe I fixed the width of the bars ages ago and the shuffle status was alright. this theme was working perfectly.

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on January 16, 2008, 06:23:32 PM
Tabernac I think this is my fault.  See my post a few up about an email from Ken.  Maybe if the wiki is rolled back a few steps the old one can be dug up?  Or even better, grab the one from the .zip in the tracker.  Ken might still have been right about the background though, check it out.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 16, 2008, 06:40:40 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure that this is my fault. I changed them to make them the same size as the nano version...

The easiest way to do it is to find the old version on the wiki attachments.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 16, 2008, 06:48:56 PM
 ???
why did you make them the same size as the nano version??

I have a copy of the old version on my hd..
should I make a new backdrop with a slightly lighter drop shadow under the now playing bar?
It will be less work to update the progress bar and backdrop than to rename the old theme btw...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 16, 2008, 06:53:50 PM
Hmmm. I honestly don't remember why I did that... And yes, ZincAlloy, go ahead and update just the background and progressbar images (what I originally intended) and you can make the drop shadow a bit lighter if you want.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 16, 2008, 06:58:05 PM
right... will do it tomorrow. gonna get some sleep now...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on January 20, 2008, 06:49:17 PM
Who else pitched into this project?  So far I've got:

Author: Johannes Voggenthaler, Apoo Maha, Marc Guay, Alex Vanderpol, Jerry Lange with support from rockbox forums and developers. Inspired by Cabbie theme from Yohann Misquitta.

Let me know who I'm forgetting.  
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 20, 2008, 07:03:51 PM
keith perri, mark fawkus, marianne arnold
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 20, 2008, 07:36:58 PM

mark fawkus

also known as mark fawcus  ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 20, 2008, 07:55:07 PM
whoops..
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on January 20, 2008, 07:59:29 PM
Cabbie 2 is committed!

It works on my Sansa, but please report any targets where it doesn't work.  Also, I'd like to know if I got the RWPS stuff right, but I don't have a remote to try it on.  Fixes should be submitted to FS#8443, preferably as patches for text files, and zips of just the changed files for binary.  

I'll fix that name spelling the next time I commit something.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 20, 2008, 08:31:56 PM
wohoo!

works on h300 (can't tell about about the rwps, though), but it features the old default icon set.

Thanks to everybody involved in this project. it's been a lot of hard work, but it was worth it!
Lot's of LOVE to all of you.  It would have taken so much longer to get this ported to all targets without  you guys and gals.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on January 20, 2008, 08:49:03 PM

wohoo!

works on h300 (can't tell about about the rwps, though), but it features the old default icon set.


Ok fixed the icon issue.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 20, 2008, 08:51:36 PM
cool.
have you included yourself in the credits list?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on January 20, 2008, 08:55:37 PM
I didn't actually do any of the theme itself, so it seemed reasonable to just put my name on the SVN logs but not be a copyright holder of the theme itself.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 20, 2008, 08:59:09 PM
I see... that makes sense. although the theme would not have been committed without you...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: lenny on January 20, 2008, 09:00:45 PM
Just downloaded fresh to test on h140 w/ remote.

The remote wps (.rwps) file was missing.

The theme .cfg was a bit messed up
Code: [Select]
wps: /.rockbox/wps/cabbiev2.wps
...
rwps: /.rockbox/wps//.rockbox/wps/cabbiev2.rwps-128x64x2.rwps


the selector type is wrong
Code: [Select]
line selector start color: fde89e
line selector end color: b58c00
selector type: bar (gradient)


I suspect for greyscale targets it should be (looked up in manual)
Code: [Select]
selector type: Bar (inverse)
therefore greyscale targets also wouldn't need the start/end colors.

thanks for all your work guys! very much appreciated!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on January 20, 2008, 09:37:40 PM
Ok fixed the selector bar and the path issue for the RWPS files.

Can someone test this on the archos players and tell me if it works?  I'm writing a few more things into the WPS file then I should, and I'm not sure if it matters or if it just ignores them.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 20, 2008, 09:46:26 PM
Awesome job everyone! I'm guessing that the unifont versions will be put up for download separately on this site?

I haven't actually tested this out on my nano, but I will as soon as I get the time. I hope to see this as the actual default theme soon!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 20, 2008, 09:52:02 PM
the unifont themes will need the same procedure as the default themes..
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: zajacattack on January 20, 2008, 10:43:15 PM
I have a question:
Will the volume meter be changed so that, like the default theme, it changes to show the decibels? Because I really think that gives people a LOT more control over volume than just five slots on an icon.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 20, 2008, 10:50:20 PM
The 160x128 greyscale theme file has a small problem with the icons. The build currently has:
Code: [Select]
iconset: /.rockbox/icons/tango_small.bmp
viewers iconset: /.rockbox/icons/tango_small_viewers.bmp


It should be using:
Code: [Select]
iconset: /.rockbox/icons/tango_small_mono.bmp
viewers iconset: /.rockbox/icons/tango_small_viewers_mono.bmp


The mono versions are in the zip here: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIriverH100#MarkFawcus
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 20, 2008, 10:58:10 PM
I was wondering whether or not the newest e200 version was committed (the one I posted today on flyspray).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on January 20, 2008, 11:23:27 PM
It was not, since I didn't know what you actually changed and I didn't want to compare 300 different files to figure it out.  It also didn't help that you modified the non SVN compatible version of the theme, so I couldn't use a SVN's diff to check what was new.

yapper:  

All the icons are included, it just looks like the build script isn't using the right ones for your target.  I think I'm going to change the script so that all entries in WPSLIST specify exactly which target they refer to.  That should resolve the ambiguity here.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 21, 2008, 02:49:52 AM

I have a question:
Will the volume meter be changed so that, like the default theme, it changes to show the decibels? Because I really think that gives people a LOT more control over volume than just five slots on an icon.


no way.
most themes have 9 volume icons btw...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MaW on January 21, 2008, 07:07:39 AM
It also doesn't give you any more control over the volume - just finer-grained visual feedback. Actual ability to change it to whatever volume you want is entirely unaffected. Most people probably don't know how the volume system works anyway, and the idea of the volume being measured as a negative number is bound to confuse people.

If this is a default theme for the masses, the graphical volume icon is much more appropriate.

Oh and by the way, it is an utterly awesome theme. I can't wait until trunk has some sort of multifont-like thing, because I think that's the only way you could make this better right now.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 21, 2008, 08:17:37 AM
Many consumer electronics, especially the more expensive stuff, may measure volume in negative dB. I think it's not so confusing to expose the user to it now. It's a default theme for the masses that use Rockbox. This isn't "everyone mainstream" as they're unlikely to install alternative firmware on their player anyway. We should be safe in assuming people installing Rockbox have some clue.

I really don't like people using "for the masses" as a defense for "dumbing it down." "Graphical volume looks better" is fine, but "People are stupid, don't confuse them" is insulting to our user base even if you wrap it in kinder words. If they can read the manual and install Rockbox, they can figure out our numerical volume, I should imagine.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on January 21, 2008, 10:11:01 AM
Actually EVERYTHING in my room uses the negative db effect. My surround sound  system, my other receiver, even my cd deck in my car. Rockbox was the first thing that exposed me to this and then i had gotten my other things so now im quite used to it.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 21, 2008, 11:15:38 AM
My consumer electronics all use different kinds of positive value scales or symbols while all the prosumer and professional audio gear I have uses a dB scale with 0 being maximum (and everything above headroom).

using numeric indicators would have made it nearly impossible to port this theme to all targets at this point, for they need to be on a text line. The indicator should be in line with the icons, so icon placement would have been comprimised, icons would have to be scaled to a different (smaller) size.
Apart from this there are aesthetic issues. I wanted every icon and indicator to feature the same look and feel.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: zajacattack on January 21, 2008, 11:27:24 AM
Isn't there a way to use viewports to align the text correctly?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 21, 2008, 11:28:56 AM
Well, making the volume indicator go by decibels is going to be hard to fix now as the theme is done and it would be hard to go over the whole theme and fix that and the theme would lose much of its looks, right?

I'll post a fix on the e200 port on flyspray soon and I'm working on a nano fix that makes the icons bigger and the rockbox logo smaller.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 21, 2008, 12:07:32 PM
Frankly, don't say things are out of the question. You don't really have the right to say "Nobody else can change or modify this theme."
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 21, 2008, 12:42:59 PM
is there a way to display numeric indicators while adjusting the volume and graphics when not?

crz, I think the nano port is looking pretty good as it is now. is there anything wrong with the their current size? too hard to read? messing with the icon size means messing with the proportions and aesthetics of the wps. I don't think it will get any better than it is now.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: zajacattack on January 21, 2008, 12:47:03 PM
I think so; that is what the current default theme does.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 21, 2008, 12:59:10 PM
cool, I'll check it out...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on January 21, 2008, 01:07:12 PM
is there a way to display numeric indicators while adjusting the volume and graphics when not?

The current default theme can do it because it simply uses the standard statusbar which is set up like this, I don't think that currently there is a way to replicate this feature with plain wps syntax.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MaW on January 22, 2008, 04:02:10 AM
I guess Rockbox's masses are considerably less ignorant than the ordinary masses. Sorry, I should have thought of that.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 22, 2008, 04:18:12 PM
I've been busy lately so I haven't put up the newer e200 version (will do today). I wanted to ask why this theme is using this album art line:

Quote
%Cl|9|16|s65|s65|


When it could (and maybe should) be using this:

Quote
%Cl|9|16|c65|c65|


What does the "s" mean anyways? I looked it up on the wiki and it didn't have any value? Maybe it would be a better idea to allow smaller album art images to be used but centered with this code?

I wanted to update the nano version because I thought that the icons were just too small, in particular the battery and volume icons are tiny...

But besides that, all the ports seem fine.

EDIT: Another question. ZincAlloy: Exactly what files were changed in the latest version of the e200 theme? I've got the progressbar, wps background and wps file down, what else was changed?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Ste- on January 22, 2008, 05:13:12 PM
The S in the album art is an old one. I think it was when album art was just a patch and not in SVN. Used to use it myself. went digging through the old album art pages it's described in the link below.
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/AlbumArt?rev=15


Quote
Additionally you can add flags to maxwidth / maxheight to control whether bigger or smaller bitmaps will automatically be resized to fit inside the maxwidth / maxheight rectangle :

    * d : decrease size - downscale the picture if it is bigger than the rectangle
    * i : increase size - upscale the picture if it is smaller than the rectangle
    * s : combination of d & i - scale the picture if it is smaller or larger than the rectangle
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 22, 2008, 06:35:36 PM
So it should be updated to (for example)?:

Quote
%Cl|9|16|c65|c65|


ZincAlloy: Which files exactly were changed in the latest e200 port update?

EDIT: New e200 version up on flyspray (I hope I did it all properly)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 22, 2008, 07:21:23 PM
it shouldn't be changed as it crops larger album art to the desired size.

only the wps background, wps and progress bar were changed.

there is something wrong with that album art line. the e200 album art is 120x120
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 22, 2008, 07:25:25 PM
I've put it up on flyspray. That line was just an example and is not the e200's album art line. And with the current album art code, what happens to larger/smaller album art images? They just don't show up?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 22, 2008, 08:28:20 PM
the s120 part it is in the current album art themes unless somebody changed it for his or her port.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Songokuu on January 29, 2008, 07:42:01 AM
I have a wrong progress bar displaying on my sansa but please read my post on ABi forum I've explained everything with pictures http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25526
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on January 29, 2008, 07:53:13 AM
I for one am not going off to another site to read about it - if you have a problem, comment or otherwise about rockbox that you want people involved with rockbox to take note of, make it here.

You could very easily copy and paste your post here.  Otherwise any replies will miss context etc.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: bzavala on January 29, 2008, 05:38:42 PM
I agree with BigBambi. Plus, you need to be a member to view posted images on that other website.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 29, 2008, 05:55:41 PM
There is actually a fix for this problem on the tracker but it has not been committed yet...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 29, 2008, 08:07:06 PM
any other bugs? I can't believe this was committed without any major issues..
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Songokuu on January 30, 2008, 06:00:16 AM
You are right BigBambi. I ment to do this yesterday but with help from ABi forum I found out there is already fix for this problem. (I think this is what crzyboyster is talking about)

http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8493

Anyway here is my post from ABi:

Quote
I have new Cpchan build and Special Build for testing battery plugin and on both I've try the new default Rockbox theme Cabbie 2.0. It's really good looking but when I'm in WPS screen there is a little "error" in displaying progress bar.
You can see that on pictures (the good one is from rockbox site and the bad I've made in paint but this is exactly what I've on my sansa).
Does anyone have this problem too? I've checked on Flyspray http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8443 and when you see a picture attached by BenjaminBrown (ben_b) in his comment you will see the same efect but no one is talking about it but font size.


made by "copy&paste inc." :D
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 30, 2008, 10:34:40 PM
No, actually I was talking about the fix at the original cabbie 2.0 flyspray page (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8443). I posted a comment on "Tuesday, 22 January 2008, 23:40 GMT" that should make the now playing and progress bars wider (the way they are supposed to be) and a fixed wps file.

I hope that the fix will be committed soon. Another thing: Why does the 160x128x2 resolution port use the mix12 font rather than have two versions? Should I make two versions for it as well (unifont and helvR10)?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on January 30, 2008, 11:44:34 PM
I merged in that fix into my local SVN but didn't commit it since I figured I'd be ready with the patch to make cabbie the default theme.  It took a lot longer then I expected to make the default theme changes (the patch on the tracker only did maybe 20% of what we'd need for a theme as complex as Cabbie), so I still haven't committed it yet.  I'm hoping to have the default theme patch ready in a couple days.  If not, I'll commit the fix separately.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 31, 2008, 06:28:21 PM
Why does the 160x128x2 resolution port use the mix12 font rather than have two versions? Should I make two versions for it as well (unifont and helvR10)?

See my reply to you on page 27 of this thread: "I've been using lazka's multi-language font, as it seems to solve at least some of the multi-language issues, without needing to have multiple versions of the theme."
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on January 31, 2008, 06:52:22 PM
I'm kind of leaning towards having people who need all the extra unicode characters download an extra font pack.  We could even link it from the downloads page.  That way we don't make everyone download 500kb to 1MB worth of fonts unless they need them, and we don't make developers check out the uncompiled unicode fonts either (mix 12 is something like 5MB alone!).  

How hard would it be to use helvR instead?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 31, 2008, 07:15:48 PM
Not hard at all, I would say. yapper, what do you think of this, are you okay with it? We should commit the new version of this and the sansa version together.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 31, 2008, 07:35:23 PM
@crzyboyster: I've got no problems with there being two versions, but there are a couple of problems:
1. I've found that the mix12 font doesn't match either helvR10 or helvR12 in height (I was under the impression that it contained helv12 from lazka's post way back in this thread, so I was always thinking of that as a fallback option, but never tested it until now :(). I'm playing with various fonts at the moment, and the best match I've found so far is nimbus-14 (or Sazanami-Mincho-Regular-14)
2. Unicode is too big, so the second version would have to use mix12.

@saratoga: I do tend to agree with the idea of having the users who need the extra charactersets download an extra font pack.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 31, 2008, 07:45:30 PM
yapper: The theme will have to be modified (like the images and code) because nimbus fonts are simply not an option. (Let's not get started on the font debate again). We will have to make the two versions use helvR10 and unifont. It should look fine and I will do the job myself if you want.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on January 31, 2008, 07:46:14 PM
1. I've found that the mix12 font doesn't match either helvR10 or helvR12 in height...

It actually *needs* to be the same font height as the H300/Ipod Color and X5 version use currently - otherwise there would be (or is?) a problem with the remote WPSs. I haven't checked the final versions though...

Edit: Font size is the line height so to speak but the font could have characters that just look smaller or bigger and have a different amount of spacing. It's sometimes easier to count how many lines fit on the screen to find that out though.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 31, 2008, 08:02:03 PM
pixelma: the mix12 font appears to be similar to HelvR12 in terms of the actual character height, but the line spacing is different. I only did the main WPS (my target doesn't have a remote) so don't know if there is (or will be) a problem with remote WPS.

crzyboyster: I don't mind at all if you want to do a redesign using 'proper' fonts. You've done a great job on the others :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 31, 2008, 08:14:27 PM
So should I start work on it? What font does the port need? helvR10 or 12?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on January 31, 2008, 08:19:45 PM
helvR12 is better for readability, certainly on the 2nd Gen iPod.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on January 31, 2008, 08:19:52 PM
It needs the same font as the H300/Ipod Color version (currently).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on January 31, 2008, 08:23:16 PM
if you're gonna do it, take into consideration that the ipod mini is currently using the same icon set (at least it was some time ago  ;D)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on January 31, 2008, 08:26:20 PM
If I understand correctly, helvR10 has to be used. I will finish it up tomorrow or by Saturday.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on February 01, 2008, 12:58:21 AM
helvR10 is 12 pixels high, helvR12 is 15 pixels high and both nimbus-14 and Sazanami-Mincho-Regular-14 are 14 pixels high.  If the nimbus font and Sazanami-Mincho-Regular-14 fit the theme where mix12 was used that means the mix12 font must be 14 pixels high as well, which means in order to use helvR10 there will need to be modification done to acount for the difference in heights.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 01, 2008, 02:54:08 PM
is there a helvR11 font?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on February 01, 2008, 03:02:44 PM
Don't the other 160x128 targets use R10?  I think using the same font as those would make the most sense.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on February 01, 2008, 03:47:35 PM
Don't the other 160x128 targets use R10?  I think using the same font as those would make the most sense.

With the danger to repeat myself... it not only makes the most sense but is necessary to make the X5/M5 remote wps work correctly.

I take the "needs to use the same font as the H300" back though, because it seems possible to specify a different rwps in combination with a different main WPS (iCatcher does, for example). Doing so would need someone creating a second iriver remote wps and this also wouldn't make sense as the H300 uses helv10 too.

By the way - saratoga: your including the rwps in different way doesn't work - it is listed in the .cfg but the actual .rwps is not there. Plus, it is different than what iCatcher does for example, I'm working on a fix. And another thing, I don't understand the need for the min width and height definitions (especially all listed seperately) and I would have expected one specification of colours, gradients etc. with the wpsbuild/WPSLIST system being clever enough to include the settings dependent on the target's feature. (This is what I would think is possible but unfortunately I'm lacking perl knowledge...)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: terrence1019 on February 01, 2008, 04:29:51 PM
One recommendation: just as when the volume limit exceeds 0 and the icon turns red, the battery icon should turn red when it reaches a critical point.  8-)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 01, 2008, 04:31:54 PM
I am now working on the new version using the helvR10 font and one version using unifont. And yes, the images/wps files will have to be modified and I will do it.


EDIT: I started work on it and am pretty much done with the default version! Preview attached. And on a side note, should I remove the "NEXT" bitmap and put in "Next Track:" text like on all the other ports for consistency?

EDIT 2: Even more recent preview attached.

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3645/dump080201163829ru0.png)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on February 01, 2008, 07:36:07 PM
should I remove the "NEXT" bitmap and put in "Next Track:" text like on all the other ports for consistency?

I don't see why not. I only used the NEXT bitmap as the larger font I was using didn't allow for an empty line above the "next" info, and it was a way to highlight the change from the "current" to "next" areas.

The preview is looking good!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 02, 2008, 12:12:28 AM
Now committed along with other fixes. Can e200 and 160x128x2 resolution player owners test it out and see if it is all working fine?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: luca on February 02, 2008, 03:27:23 AM
There's a typo in the e200 WPS that prevents displaying album art:

%Cl|29|20|c120|c120|

Removing the extra 'c' the theme works just fine. Thanks in advance for your work!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 02, 2008, 10:03:22 AM
Is the album art seriously not showing up using that line in the e200 version? The "c" should actually be centering the album art and is not even supposed to be there. All of the other ports use the following format:

Quote
%Cl|29|20|s120|s120|


Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 02, 2008, 10:08:38 AM
it will be centered with the "s" tag as well afaik.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on February 02, 2008, 10:26:23 AM
Can e200 and 160x128x2 resolution player owners test it out and see if it is all working fine?

It's looking good on the 2nd gen iPod 160x128x2
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: luca on February 02, 2008, 02:00:02 PM
Well, it was probably a glitch of the player, since after reloading the current build it now shows up even with the 'c' modifier. I thought it was a typo since I couldn't find it in the CustomWps page (I had to click on More Details, my fault). The 's' modifier is not mentioned in the AlbumArt page though. Thanks for your time anyway.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 02, 2008, 02:18:09 PM
whoops... I need to correct myself: The theme that I tried that centered too small album art was the e200 theme..
Is it possible to use two modifiers at once?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 02, 2008, 06:50:47 PM
Actually, according to the following page: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/AlbumArt#The_WPS_Tags, the "s" album art variable is no longer used or supported. Makes me wonder why it's in every port of this theme? I think that all instances of the "s" variable should be changed to the "c" variable. What do you think?

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 02, 2008, 06:59:22 PM
yes, they should be.
we will have to change them back to "s" when the bmp resize patch gets commited, though.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 02, 2008, 07:33:15 PM
I agree, it won't be too hard to do it would it? I just tested out the latest version of the e200 version and it still looks messed up (screenshot attached) Anyone know why this is happening?



EDIT: I tested this out on the sim and apparently it did not have the latest version of the theme. Downloaded latest current build and tested out the wps included in it and it worked the way it was supposed to.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on February 02, 2008, 09:11:40 PM
You need to change the code that displays the progress bar to the new left and right placement values.  It's still using the old values for the shorter progress bar.

EDIT:  That is, if the problem is still a problem, if not then someone already fixed that.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 02, 2008, 09:25:33 PM
The problem has been fixed already if I am not mistaken.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on February 07, 2008, 06:05:46 PM
Got a question about the Mini and 160x128 greyscale port that's now in SVN.

They both use the same icons - if I can trust the .wps files - but the Mini port references 10 volume graphics (vol00-vol09) whereas the 160x128 greyscale references only 9 (vol00-vol08). The problem is that there is no vol09-160x128x2.bmp in the folder, even though the vol08 one doesn't look like it should be the final bitmap because the triangle is not completely "filled".

I just want to know what the correct version is and if it's just the vol09 bitmap that's missing, how this one is supposed to look like. Then the 160x128x2.wps would have to be "fixed" too, but that wouldn't be a big problem once I know how to proceed. :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on February 07, 2008, 06:17:46 PM
pixelma: The vol08 that is not completely filled has a '!' on it (intended to indicate when the volume is set above 0dB). Colour versions used a red segment to the right, but the greyscale used the '!' and shaded the last segment differently.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 07, 2008, 06:20:57 PM
So there's no problem with it, right?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on February 07, 2008, 06:21:30 PM
Ok, do I understand correctly that the reference to a vol09 icon in the 138x110x2.wps is wrong then?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on February 07, 2008, 06:22:46 PM
I'm not sure about that one - but the 160*128*2 only went up to vol08

Edit: looking at the mini bitmaps, it appears to me that it too is using vol08 as the last one, so I think the reference to vol09 in the mini .wps can be removed. (Yes I think you are right, pixelma)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 07, 2008, 06:30:38 PM
pixelma: Yes, I would think so. And for the sake of uniformity, these filenames should be renamed:

background-128x96x2.bmp to wpsbackdrop-128x96x2.bmp
vol00-160x128x2.bmp to vol0-160x128x2.bmp and so on

I just noticed that the archos versions weren't renamed prior to committing...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: NicolasP on February 10, 2008, 05:03:46 PM
Hi everyone.
Since the Gigabeat version has been submitted I've found it too cluttered and inconsistent with the look of the theme on other targets. I took the liberty of making a few changes which IMHO improve it, and I'd like to know what you think (see pictures attached).

The main changes are the following:
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 10, 2008, 05:53:29 PM
The newer version is WAY better than the older version, but my only complaint is the smaller font size. (This really isn't my complaint, but it's all the gigabeat owners' complaints condensed in one). People already have problems with the current font size, but this (I think) will just be too small.

Everything else is looking awesome, so that could (and should) be committed as soon as possible.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on February 10, 2008, 06:04:32 PM
As a gigabeat owner myself, I personally like the smaller font size.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 10, 2008, 10:42:55 PM
I have uploaded the new gigabeat version to the tracker > http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8443
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 10, 2008, 11:09:07 PM
 :D we've gotten nowhere with the Gigabeat font size discussion. awesome.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LinusN on February 11, 2008, 02:08:04 AM
Haha! I'm in the bigger font camp. Does that say something about my age? :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 11, 2008, 02:37:56 AM
not necessarily. your eyesight may be bad regardless of your age.  :D
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on February 11, 2008, 03:09:38 AM
I think the original font was too small on my gigabeat, this is even worse!

I do like the decluttering though.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on February 11, 2008, 03:11:54 AM
I'm joining the "likes the small fonts" camp.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: NicolasP on February 11, 2008, 03:54:22 AM
OK I seem to have missed the font size debate, sorry for bringing it up again. However the main point of my version is the cleaning up. It's probably possible to achieve the same thing with HelvR14.

The reason I chose HelvR12 is that IMHO HelvR14 looks really bad, regardless of its size. It feels like a badly scaled version of HelvR12. Also the ipod video version of the theme uses HelvR12 although the ipod video has the same screen resolution as the Gigabeat, and even on the other targets the chosen font size is rather smallish. I don't see why the Gigabeat would be an exception.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on February 11, 2008, 04:51:48 AM
I agree about consistency.  I've already modified a version of this for my own use, so tbh I'm not too bothered.  Let's present a united front of targets!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 11, 2008, 04:05:35 PM
I am totally for this new gigabeat version. My biggest problem with the older version was the font. Sure, it was big, but for some reason it looked "pixelated" and not clean like the rest of the helvR font family. The helvR12 font is looking great, though!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: NicolasP on February 14, 2008, 11:23:39 AM
Shall I start working towards committing it, then? What I need to do is make a cleaner version of the background. I'll need the original graphics for that.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 14, 2008, 06:02:27 PM
email sent.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: toffe on February 15, 2008, 12:07:30 PM
Just one thing, I don't see why to put a banner with "now playing" as you come to this screen form the menu now playing.
This banner could be removed or the text change with the time perhaps
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 15, 2008, 12:39:42 PM

Just one thing, I don't see why to put a banner with "now playing" as you come to this screen form the menu now playing.


not necessarily.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on February 15, 2008, 01:19:59 PM
I actually love the "now playing" title bar, I always thought it looked very classy.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on February 23, 2008, 04:37:06 AM
Since the theme has worked its way in and now been made the default (woo!) I thought I'd re-bring up a post I made a while ago... When updating the database on my player at startup, I see the rockbox splash displayed on a white background... but for a split second after updating is done, I see the rockbox splash on the cabbie gradient background... and it looks really good. The same goes for when I plug in the player to usb and the usb picture flashes over the gradient for a moment before restarting in charge mode. What I was wondering is, is there any interest in changing the splash image/usb mode pictures to use the gradient as a background? the easiest way to do it would be to simply alter those two pictures to take up the whole screen by adding the gradient to the image itself, but I know the larger image size may slow rockbox (maybe), so I was also curious if it's just possible to load the backdrop gradient in one's theme at boot, when the player starts up (which I don't think is possible, but would be pretty nifty, since then anyone's theme would integrate nicely with the boot image/usb picture). How possible is this, and does it actually interest anyone besides me?

Attached is a picture I gimp'd together for the boot image. I was going to make this a flyspray feature request, but it seemed like this might be more appropriate... I can make it a flyspray as well if people are actually interested/people think that would make more sense.

(also, sorry to double post, but this doesn't really feel like a double post)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/dancemasterglenn/cabbie2defaultsplash-320x240x16.jpg)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 23, 2008, 05:02:44 AM
this was my idea for the splash screen:
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on February 23, 2008, 05:28:36 AM
That fits the reflective WPS style in the cabbie3 theme moreso than the cabbie2 theme, in my opinion.

EDIT: Essentially my point (and personal opinion) is that the simple change in backdrop of the two images in question unifies the theme all the more, and looks great without actually changing anything about the logo or the usb picture. That's all.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 23, 2008, 09:40:29 AM
I just realized Cabbiev2 is the default theme as of today. Thanks again to everybody involved!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on February 23, 2008, 10:37:22 AM
We can't actually load an image at that point during booting without drastically slowing down the boot. We could change the background color to a different solid color, but that's about it. That Rockbox image is actually compiled into the Rockbox binary, but a fullscreen image takes up a lot more space (not to mention in both of your mockups the version number would be much more difficult to read).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 23, 2008, 01:39:21 PM
harder to read? wouldn't it be possible to display the version nr in white with the logo as a background?

with the start up speed issue we should probably use a black background with the old logo graphic. the blue looks horrible on my player. kind of off-white.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on February 23, 2008, 04:34:45 PM
I agree that a default black with the normal logo would look very nice indeed. And yes, would it be possible to display the version number in white? Since that's the only way it would really work, I suppose... knowing your version is pretty darn important  :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on February 23, 2008, 06:10:38 PM
Could someone with a wikipedia account update this page to have cabbie as the theme:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockbox
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/WpsIpod5g/cabbieipodaa.png

Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: psycho_maniac on February 24, 2008, 10:05:37 AM
A solid color for the background would be good. You could have it as the color of what you chose in the theme you have loaded up on your player.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 24, 2008, 11:00:22 AM
that's a nice idea..
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on February 24, 2008, 12:40:06 PM
Again that is not known yet. Remember this is shown before any file is loaded. It hasn't loaded the cfg yet.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 24, 2008, 01:01:57 PM
To tell you the truth, I originally liked this idea, but I changed my mind.

The splashscreen of rockbox should stay that way to leave an old rockbox "signature" since now we have viewports for the wps and menu and a default theme. This makes rockbox completely user customizable.

Leave some of the old rockbox "flavor" behind! Like the signature blue background shade!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on February 24, 2008, 02:11:16 PM
Why does everyone keep saying blue? My background is white...

EDIT: I'm in the process of updating wikipedia, but I stalled pretty fast uploading the image because they want a lot of information. I need this:

Summary (author, source, URL, fair use rationale if applicable, extra {{tags}}, etc.):

and

Licensing:

Once someone clues me in to what we're using there, I can upload and change the page and all that jazz.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: saratoga on February 24, 2008, 02:40:22 PM

EDIT: I'm in the process of updating wikipedia, but I stalled pretty fast uploading the image because they want a lot of information. I need this:

Summary (author, source, URL, fair use rationale if applicable, extra {{tags}}, etc.):

and

Licensing:

Once someone clues me in to what we're using there, I can upload and change the page and all that jazz.


Source would be rockbox.org, license could be public domain, and the author is whoever took that screen shot (wiki says Apoo Maha).  Though I'm not sure if any of that matters, its a screen shot of a free software program, anyone can make an identical picture of it and we reserve no license or anything on the image.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on February 24, 2008, 03:02:53 PM
Picture is all set, if anyone wants to edit it feel free. It looks really great up there  :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on February 24, 2008, 03:38:56 PM
If you have a color player, your background on that screen is blue. You're more than welcome to check it in the source. It's a very light blue, but it's blue.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on February 24, 2008, 03:55:22 PM
Weird. It looks like a white/very very very light grey to me. I'll take your word for it, though, since there's no way mine is randomly displaying a different color than everyone else.

Anyhoo. I would personally still vote for changing that color as default to black, but obviously it's not a huge deal. Regarding crzyboyster's post, I'd agree with keeping the "flavor" of rockbox, but I think a background color doesn't really lend itself to said flavor. I think the more important thing is to keep the logo the same, which is why in my mockup I used the same logo (no, not just because I can't draw very well  :P). I think changing the background color to black just looks classy, while keeping the same feel with the classic logo (god, I really like the logo).

So yes. That's where I'm coming from.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on February 24, 2008, 04:20:50 PM
I think the blue is the same shade that is used on this very site.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on February 24, 2008, 04:21:34 PM
Well because the screens are 16-bit, and because some of them have adjustable contrast, it can end up looking quite different from how the shade should actually look.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 24, 2008, 06:19:20 PM
DancemasterGlenn: Want to write something specific about the cabbiev2 theme? Like maybe under the "Customization" or "Rockbox Features" sections?

I personally don't like the image because the text looks too small and "condensed" (in my opinion).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on February 24, 2008, 06:40:48 PM
But the image is what it actually looks like. Are you trying to start the debate up again, under new pretexts?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on February 24, 2008, 06:45:29 PM
Are you referring to the text in the uploaded image? I can change it to a different image if you think it would be a better representation of the WPS, but it seems perfectly fine to me (although that picture is using the old band-song-album order, not the current song-band-album order that was decided on).

I'll think of something to write regarding the theme in the article when I have another chance. Should be within the week. What was the date this was confirmed as the default, again?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on February 24, 2008, 07:29:13 PM
DancemasterGlenn: 2008-02-23 is when the new default theme was made the default, it's been in SVN for a few weeks or a month now, I think.

Llorean: What debate are we talking about? I like all the helvR fonts and think that they fit the cabbiev2 theme perfectly. What my problem was was that the uploaded image looks too small (not properly scaled) and doesn't look as clean as I would like it to look (talking about the screenshot, here!) and the text on the screen looks "faded". Maybe the screenshot should be of the h300 version or that table extended.

I modded the wikipedia page, but I really don't like it. Maybe the screenshot should be of the h300 version?
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on February 24, 2008, 07:33:57 PM
Well, you said the *text* looks too small, which suggests a problem with the font size, not the image itself, so i thought you were trying to re-start the font choice debate.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on February 24, 2008, 09:49:03 PM
Well, anyone could have clicked the picture and seen the clear-as-day full size picture, I think it made more sense to have it scaled the way it was so it doesn't take up as much space on the page. And it without question looked worlds better than the ipod vision theme that was there previously... I dunno. I think the picture looks really nice, I don't see any reason to change it to a different port's screenshot.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: NicolasP on March 06, 2008, 09:00:49 AM
I have finally committed the improved gigabeat version ! :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on March 07, 2008, 04:12:52 AM
Improved?  That is rather objective  :)  The font was too small before IMO!

Anyway, lets not open that argument again, I don't use it anyway and I'm just glad to have a decent default theme :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: linuxstb on March 07, 2008, 08:35:48 AM
I also preferred the font as it was originally committed, rather than this change.  Reading back through this thread a few pages, all the comments seem to be saying that a bigger font is needed for the GB, not a smaller one...

EDIT: I've been re-reading the pages more carefully, and I take that back - some people wanted it smaller, some larger...  I guess I'm just a little annoyed that changes to SVN were hidden in a forum thread, rather than discussed in the usual places.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on March 07, 2008, 03:17:55 PM
Just had another try on the m:robe100 port and posted the result to the cabbiev2 tracker task (FS#8443 (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8443)). The details are explained there but I'd also welcome comments here, especially by the contributors and m:robe 100 owners. :)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on March 07, 2008, 04:30:52 PM
good job! looks nice.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: joey1 on March 09, 2008, 07:12:26 AM
Hi guys i found something that i think may need fixing..
correct me if i am wrong but when i go to Settings>Sound Settings i see the Equalizer icon has a pink line under it. I don't think that is meant to be there..
It looks as if it was meant to be transparent but isn't the right color
Keep up the awesome work Rockbox team!!!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crash91 on March 09, 2008, 10:03:18 AM
 :D
This is exactly what i found yesterday, i can comfirm this, all that needs to be done is correct the color, it seems like antialiasing was left on by mistake.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on March 15, 2008, 07:45:34 AM
This is exactly what i found yesterday, i can comfirm this, all that needs to be done is correct the color, it seems like antialiasing was left on by mistake.

Fixed.

Something else:
While working on the m:robe 100 port, I compared the other 160x128 versions (greyscale and colour) and noticed that the greyscale one is quite different from the colour one (not as "3D" and obviously slightly bigger icons, see comparison of all three in the tracker (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8443?getfile=16130)). There is also one, I think, important problem with the greyscale menu backdrop since it uses black in some parts, it makes the end of long lines in this spot unreadable.

I have some ideas how to make the greyscale port more in line with the other 160x128 versions, are there any objections? Don't want to offend one, so I guess the way to go is make the graphics and post the result in form of a screenshot here, or in the tracker or wiki...?

By the way, I also figured out what the problem with the greyscale vol-09 icon is... The vol-08 one should actually be the -09 one (the "above line level, expect clipping" icon, full triangle with exclamation mark). And currently there is no "0dB" icon (full triangle, without exclamation mark) which only ever shows at exact 0dB, line level, that should be vol-08. It is done this way in the colour versions with a full yellow triangle for 0dB which turns red if going above line level. In the greyscale version vol-07 is now used for 0db because it's the second to last definition in the conditional and I was asked recently why the volume never turns "full" on the H100 which doesn't go above 0dB...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on March 15, 2008, 07:57:41 AM

I have some ideas how to make the greyscale port more in line with the other 160x128 versions, are there any objections?
...
In the greyscale version vol-07 is now used for 0db because it's the second to last definition in the conditional and I was asked recently why the volume never turns "full" on the H100 which doesn't go above 0dB...

I have no objections. Somewhere way back in this thread I actually requested that someone improve my crude graphics  :)

Good point about the volume icons - I only tested on an iPod, which goes to +6dB, so I didn't experience the 'lack of a full icon' phenomena.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on March 22, 2008, 09:56:46 AM
Just committed a first cleanup of the cabbiev2 in svn (mainly deleting unused files, renaming for consistency etc., the commit message explains it) - one thing was also the vol-8 and vol-9 issue in the greyscale version where I only supplied a "full" image without exclamation mark but no visual changes to the icons themselves for now.

The next step is the greyscale menu background which I prepared and would like some feedback before a commit (will attach the bitmaps to the tracker entry, FS#8443). The size of the logo is now the same as in the 160x128 colour version (the mini's scaled accordingly) and much lighter. I made it as light as I thought was necessary to not make reading too difficult on my M5 which has a slightly brighter backlight than the H100. I had the possibility to watch it on an Ipod Mini too where the lightgrey is unfortunately very bright but I'd prefer that to "too dark" and don't want to break consistency because of that (the colour versions are also not handled differently just because the one or other display might show the colours or contrast differently). Opinions?


Edit:

New greyscale wps versions now available in the tracker too (including screenshots). I explained the most things there, just forgot to mention that the volume icons are now mostly dark grey (and a bit of light reflections) and the last one for above 0dB is more black (still a bit 3D-ish) - but I kept the exclamation mark because the difference was not too visible on my M5. As above I'm asking for opinions, maybe someone (ZincAlloy?) could also answer  the question about the placement of the Rockbox logo in the menu background, that yapper asked in the tracker...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on March 23, 2008, 05:59:39 PM
looks good.
I usually place the menu screen logo so that the bottom of the "R" aligns with the wps screen icons (which probably wouldn't look good in this case).
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Idokras on March 27, 2008, 11:45:45 AM
I'm using the 2007-10-24 build for my 5G ipod video because of the harddisc issue...any newer build has it rattling non-stop.

The problem is, I can't use the cabbiev2 theme with it - the menus look ok when I choose it, but the playing screen isn't showing the theme. Simply copying the necessary files from a newer build doesn't work. Is there any way to implement it? I'd really love to use it as it's by far the cleanest and best looking one.

Thanks for any help!
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on March 27, 2008, 01:05:13 PM
I guess the problem with your version would be the album art displaying, so you would have to remove the AA instructions and conditionals, making it work always as it does in the no AA case (text lines centered).

Just in case you want to give it a try, the r16507 (and probably other versions, but that is one I'm sure of) didn't have mayor hard disk spinning problems, and do support cabbie2 (displaying AA)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on March 27, 2008, 08:25:05 PM
Is there some reason a better default theme can't come along, and replace the existing one? I think we can all agree the current one still has weaknesses.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on March 27, 2008, 09:01:20 PM
Of course the current one can be replaced, but I don't see why.

The main weaknesses are listed throughout this thread and I guess there are a lot, but this theme has a good strength which is that it makes the perfect first impression.

And besides that, I have some feelings with cabbiev2 which I doubt I would have with any other default theme.

But yes, it can be replaced if a better one does come along  ;)
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on March 27, 2008, 09:08:17 PM

Of course the current one can be replaced, but I don't see why.

The main weaknesses are listed throughout this thread and I guess there are a lot, but this theme has a good strength which is that it makes the perfect first impression.

And besides that, I have some feelings with cabbiev2 which I doubt I would have with any other default theme.

But yes, it can be replaced if a better one does come along  ;)


Don't worry about it, Llorean just said that as a response to what was apparently a stupid request that I have now deleted.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: terrence1019 on March 28, 2008, 03:40:28 AM
I'm grateful for all the hard work all of you guys exerted to produce Cabbie 2.0, but the fact is: Llorean is right.

Rockbox stands for constant updates and improvements: always changing and improving as time proceeds, to suit the requirements for functionality.

Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the year a new default theme is out.

As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if someone is busy making a new default theme right now. As is a few weeks away from posting it for approval.....
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on March 28, 2008, 06:02:58 AM

I'm grateful for all the hard work all of you guys exerted to produce Cabbie 2.0, but the fact is: Llorean is right.

Rockbox stands for constant updates and improvements: always changing and improving as time proceeds, to suit the requirements for functionality.

Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the year a new default theme is out.

As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if someone is busy making a new default theme right now. As is a few weeks away from posting it for approval.....


I would be surprised.  Making a theme for all the different sizes and types of screens we have is no mean feat, and most people won't bother with anything more than the player they own.  Add to that there is no guarantee a new one would be preferred - cabbiev2 had the advantage that with a very few exceptions, the previous default was universally hated, and look how long it took 'us' to change that.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on March 28, 2008, 10:37:10 AM
I posted earlier regarding changing the name of the thread to something like "cabbiev2 thread". I figured (perhaps incorrectly) that the contest was over, since cabbie was one of the few actual entries, and also because it is now the default (which to me signified the contest's end). If anyone browses this forum even semi-regularly, they're going to know this thread, and also know that cabbie has become the default. Who wouldn't just assume that the contest is over because of this, and therefore not bother to submit a theme to challenge it? That was my reasoning. By that logic, the only people who are going to post their own ideas for a default theme in this thread would be people who have not only never been on the forum before, they would have not bothered to read the 55 pages where cabbie was created, and merged in as the default.

I still think that the thread title should be changed. This should be a place where people talk about the weaknesses in the wps (I love this theme and have pretty much no problem with it at this point), and fix them. If you want people to keep making new candidates for a default theme, it seems like it would make more sense to start a new thread for that/make a small sticky saying that you're always looking for new, better themes, than to continue adding pages and pages of new theme discussion to this page, until people have to start wading through 100+ pages of people going through the (long) process of making a theme that may or may not become a new default.

Just my two cents.

EDIT: Changed a lot of words. Hopefully no longer looks like a personal attack...
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on March 28, 2008, 10:50:37 AM
cabbiev2 is by no means the ultimate default theme. there are weaknesses to it (only graphic volume and battery meters, no peak meters, disagreements about font sizes on some targets - though I doubt we will ever get the font thing right. what we have now might be a good compromise), but it has many strong points: it looks pretty nice, it sports "rockbox colors", album art (but still looks good without any album art present) and you guys (and gals) were very enthusiastic about it (which is why cabbiev2 was ported to all targets and even made default). It's a standard that all future themes will have to be measured against. not more, not less. It won't be easy to create a more suitable default theme.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on March 28, 2008, 10:51:33 AM
Is "the lack of a font in the appropriate sizes with a wide enough range of characters" NOT a weakness? Or do you think it's a STRENGTH of the theme that it's unsuitable for use for many languages? Do you suggest that there are no other weaknesses whatsoever? While I would not (and most explicitly DID NOT, if you compare your quote to my actual text) call it a problem with the theme, it's definitely a point in which it could be stronger. Please, don't confuse "weaknesses" with "problems", and please read what I say rather than what you think I said.

I mean seriously, why do people keep assuming that I mean something other than what I've said? It's beginning to drive me insane. Why on Earth would I take the time to type out a sentence if I didn't actually mean exactly what that sentence said? Are you assuming I accidentally typed the wrong word, or what? Please, enlighten me as to why you think you know what I meant better than I, the writer, did.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on March 28, 2008, 10:54:10 AM
That's not really a theme problem. it's a font problem. some of the font sizes we're using are already covering a pretty wide range of characters.
If I recall correctly crzyboyster is making the unifont version ready for release.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on March 28, 2008, 10:55:25 AM
The unifont version introduces new weaknesses since the font is huge. If you look, I said fonts in appropriate sizes. For some screens, unifont is far too large to be considered an appropriate size. While this isn't a problem other themes can fix (without creation of custom fonts) it's still very much a weakness with this theme, as it was decided to use an existing font rather than modify an existing one or create a new one.

Edit: Done, the topic is changed to one more appropriate.
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on March 28, 2008, 11:01:32 AM
ok, so somebody needs to modify the helvR fonts to have more characters...


Edit: Done, the topic is changed to one more appropriate.


 :D
Title: Re: DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on March 28, 2008, 11:02:14 AM
Edit: Done, the topic is changed to one more appropriate.


Thank you.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on March 28, 2008, 11:05:20 AM
DancemasterGlenn: While you're busy thanking me, care to offer an apology for attempting to misrepresent what I said? Edit: Since apparently he's just simply covering up what he did instead of apologizing: His original post suggested I said "we all agree that there are problems", rather than that" I think we can all agree that there are weaknesses" (as the avid reader will notice is what my post actually says). The avid reader will notice some significant difference in both tone and meaning in these two phrases.

ZincAlloy: Yes, or find another free font of the same size that offers a wider character set, or merge the characters from another free font so that the English look can be preserved. There's a variety of ways to improve it. I'm not saying it *has* to be improved, but it's a very obvious weakness. I also think the lack of an objective measure of seek time is a big weakness on the c200 (it's very hard to seek to a point in an audiobook if you can't see the seek in hours:minutes, only a progress bar), but that's pretty much as simple as putting the "Next Track" information in a conditional and have it show Elapsed and Total times while you're seeking, instead of Next info.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on March 28, 2008, 11:14:21 AM
good idea.
another one: should we replace remaining time with total track time?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on March 28, 2008, 11:17:26 AM
I'm indifferent on that one. :)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on March 28, 2008, 11:18:04 AM
I apologize for misrepresenting what you said, but it wasn't at all intentional. Like I said, I thought the contest was over, and that was my mistake. I make a lot of mistakes on this forum. I do believe that the change in title was important, and I appreciate you did it.

I'm also sorry that for whatever reason (and this is sincere), I always seem to be at odds with you. It's not my intent in the slightest, and I'm sorry I keep making noob comments all the time. You have enough people bugging you with silly questions already, and I probably don't help. I'll try and do better in the future.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on March 28, 2008, 11:24:19 AM
Now now, I didn't call you a noob, and don't mean to imply you are. It's just very, very frustrating to have people continually respond to what they think I've said, rather than what I've said.

Honestly, I'm sure a lot of people on this forum feel like they're at odds with me, and I'm sorry for how harsh I may have been, but I think it's very important that people read what's on the screen carefully and respond to what is actually said. And lately there's been a slight rash (here and elsewhere) of people putting words in my mouth, so it was a bit of a touchy subject.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on March 28, 2008, 11:28:52 AM
I understand, and I apologize again. I also just changed my older post again (more than one word this time) so that it looks less... I dunno. Attack-y. I hope it's better now?

EDIT (of course): If altering the old one added to making all the posts after it look weird, I'm sorry. Didn't really think that one through either. If doing some pruning would get the thread back to normalcy, prune away. I'll refrain from making any more edits unless absolutely necessary.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on March 30, 2008, 11:50:25 AM
Speaking of the cabbiev2's weaknesses... While working on the new greyscale icons and especially the Iaudio remote port I noticed that the lock icon only represents the hold switch state of the main player not the remote. I think that especially with the new M3 port it would be important to see both (M3 has no display on the main unit but you can attach the remote which is basically the same as with the other supported remotes), both parts have hold switches. What do others think?


On an almost unrelated note:
I wanted to update the greyscale screenshots on the DefaulWPS page but noticed that those use screenshots which are on the WpsGallery subpages. Of course I like that this avoids duplication but I didn't know how to deal with the fact(s) that now the cabbiev2 is included in the builds (and is even used as default) seperate packages wouldn't be needed - and that someday in the (hopefully not so far) future the WpsGallery in the wiki is supposed to be replaced by the new official rockbox-themes.org. In short: the problem is that I wouldn't like to put new theme packages into the wiki but would like to show the new look on said wiki page...
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on March 30, 2008, 12:34:57 PM

In short: the problem is that I wouldn't like to put new theme packages into the wiki but would like to show the new look on said wiki page...

I recently removed the seperate download link for cabbie v2 from the wiki 160*128*2 theme page (on the basis that the theme is now included with regular builds), but left the screen shots. I've just updated the screenshots to show the new (better) graphics, which should in turn mean the DefaultWPS wiki will also show the new graphics. I've also deleted the Traditional Chinese screenshot, as it is no longer supported with the default font selection.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: zajacattack on March 30, 2008, 01:18:58 PM
I noticed there was a big effort to make a unifont version of this theme, and then it wasn't included in the current build with the regular version. Any particular reason for this?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on March 30, 2008, 01:25:56 PM
I believe the main factor was the large file size of fonts needed to support multiple character sets.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on March 30, 2008, 08:24:39 PM
Unifont especially is incredibly large (filesize) because it's purpose is to support as many unicode glyphs as possible. A unifont version of this theme is certainly a good thing to have, but having unifont in every download would make a significant difference in bandwidth used by downloads.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on April 03, 2008, 09:39:09 AM
Just a thought regarding album art... (I came just recently to this board, and then probably gave a look to half of the 56 (!!!) pages, searching for similar comments... so apologies if what I write now has been already discussed and I missed it)

Recently in another thread, someone was asking what the “appropriate” size for album art images he should have is. When you think about it, it’s a pretty fair question. The great thing about having so much themes available, is of course being able to switch easily between most of them.  But the “no AA resizing” limitation also places some kind of limitation for that… If you only have one album art image - that happens not to be the theme’s AA size -  you may end up either using an “undersized” AA that really doesn’t look good for the original design, or just having to see an “oversized” partial of it… of course, some people care more than other about album art.

So why would this be important for the default theme? In my opinion, because the default theme, intentionally or not,  also sets a standard for the album art size.  Because you probably would start placing the correct album art images for the default theme. So I wonder if this standard is thought to be consistent with the “usual” or “popular” size in the other themes for a particular port… Not that it HAS to be like that, but wouldn’t it be better?  Specially if you are new to Rockbox? In my case (ipod video), it’s surprising that very few themes use 120x120 album art, like cabbiev2 the default theme does (agreeing that it looks very good under the current design), while most of the other themes use 100x100 AA…

(Of course, all this will become irrelevant when resizing is incorporated to the official build… but in the meantime…)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: bzavala on April 03, 2008, 04:28:17 PM
Good point. In my opinion, album art should be proportional to the screen resolution for each DAP.... something like 50% or 75% of shortest of width or height.

For example, for an iPod, something about 120x120 or 180x180 would be a good size.  100x100 AA size for a 320x240 resolution is way too small in my opinion.

I know having some screens that are vertical vs horizontal makes it hard to create one theme that can look a like across all of them.

Another idea I had, was if it could be possible to modify viewports, so that a viewport can overlap with another one. In this case, you could place text over the Album Art viewport give you more space for a bigger album art.

Just some thoughts...


Ben
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on April 03, 2008, 05:05:35 PM

...album art should be proportional to the screen resolution for each DAP.... something like 50% or 75% of shortest of width or height...


That sounds perfectly logical... But more than disagreeing with a specific size or specific preferences, the point is what happens when you install Rockbox on your DAP, generate the bmp files in the correct size for the default theme, to find later that if you want to use the feature of changing themes, you have to generate a whole new set of AA images, if you want to use any of the vast majority of available themes, or bear with the fact that the AA won't be displayed properly... in either case, it can be frustrating for some people. So this is just a reflection about it, and how to minimize that. Maybe it's just a matter of making it clearer to people so that they know before dealing with AA files, maybe the default theme should try to preserve the "standard" set by the many former themes, or there should be a call for updating the other themes according to the default's AA size... or maybe this is not so important anyway  :-\  Personally, I think that if it was said that scrolling lines might be confusing for new users, this could be more confusing, and eventually require more skills and time
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on April 03, 2008, 05:50:14 PM
it requires more time. not more skill. if a user manages to create AA once, he or she will be able to create a second set.
It is a problem, indeed. I chose 120x120 because it felt kinda right. It still is a bit on the small side.
Why do we have tiny 100x100 album art in the first place? probably because the first album art theme for the ipod target had 100x100 album art. cabbie v2 might change this standard  (which might be a good thing) - and should look ok with 100x100 AA.
But I have to agree - it can be annoying to new users if they create their album art first and choose a different theme afterwards. So, what are we gonna do about it?

btw: scrolling lines aren't really confusing, but hard to read. alternating sublines on the other hand can be very confusing.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on April 03, 2008, 06:21:06 PM

it requires more time. not more skill...

Just as an example, you wouldn't be able to name your AA files just "cover.bmp" but give them more accurate names, find the right tool for that, avoid distortion if converting from smaller to bigger, etc, but I agree, that is not the main point.

Well, to find out what to do about it, it would depend I guess from what most of the people think (I just wanted to make the reflection.. much easier than producing THE solution :) )

Again, wether 100x100 is tiny or say 150x150 ideal, is a matter of preferences. For example, I'd always prefer AA as big as possible, but I'm willing to sacrifice AA size if I can display other information, or minimize scrolling, etc. But regardless of personal opinions, maybe it would be just enough to do a bit of all I mentioned before: That is, to re-check that each port has the best AA size; to make people aware of a new standard AA size in the appropiate wiki, explaining of course that there was a former "standard" and what to do in order to have theme switching flexibility (while resizing comes)... hopefully people will come up with more ideas  ;)


btw: scrolling lines aren't really confusing, but hard to read. alternating sublines on the other hand can be very confusing.

That is what I meant to mention
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on April 03, 2008, 06:33:39 PM
blowing up small images to produce larger album art is pointless. one would use the same tool and original image that created the smaller album art. and one doesn't really need a tool for renaming.

THE solution for our is the .bmp resize patch - which is not ready at this point.

Of course AA size is dependant on the users personal preferences. I guess most would go for a medium or larger size.

Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on April 03, 2008, 07:08:29 PM

blowing up small images to produce larger album art is pointless. one would use the same tool and original image that created the smaller album art. and one doesn't really need a tool for renaming.


As you, I don't find major problems in all that, even when batch-processing for a large amount of albums, but there are people all the time asking questions way more basic than these.
The mayor concern is to keep Rockbox as "the best possible music listening experience" (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyRockbox) - if you consider the themes a part of it -... but maybe at this stage, regarding the default theme, beeing just practical about it, just nothing more should/could be done and drop this debate?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on April 03, 2008, 07:18:04 PM
well, we should consider changes where they make sense. I'm not sure at this point IF this one would make much sense. We found that there is an issue, but anything we can do about it will compromise something. We have to make sure we make the right decision or we will have another issue as a result.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on April 03, 2008, 10:20:40 PM
I totally agree. I would put it like this: it shouldn't be only about wether or not to modify the size the default theme currently uses, since that would imply most probably to redefine the design to some extent; on a wider spectrum, it is about to try to not affect (not "technically", but functionally, in the usual practice) the flexibility Rockbox has to switch between themes (minimizing possible issues involved), considering the themes that are available to switch to, if that aspect is considered important. I just mentioned the current default's AA size because on this matters probably nothing should be discarded before analizing it

...It is a problem, indeed. I chose 120x120 because it felt kinda right...

...and I didn't find any comments regarding this subject before...

But to be honest, after all that's been said, I have to say that you shouldn't have to deal with this at his point, and I have to agree that maybe finding a solution via modifying cabbiev2, would cause even bigger problems, not to mention that it would  probably ruin the great look; so it is probably about minimizing what affects the "functional" switching flexibility... through information? tools?... or to leave it like that, but to do that as a concious decision.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on April 04, 2008, 01:29:54 AM
I don't think Rockbox should consider other themes when designing or defining its default. There are hundreds, if not more, of other themes and so many different things about them. Especially in an example like this, where eventually a technical means (the resize patch) will render it a non-issue. It's just a matter of time, more than anything else.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on April 05, 2008, 12:25:55 PM
good points... it and it's the most comfortable solution for us  ;D
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on April 05, 2008, 05:08:48 PM
...and I'll keep my peace of mind for asking  8-)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on April 07, 2008, 11:33:20 AM
Purely out of curiosity, since I'm under the impression it'll still be a while before we have this in main builds, how will the addition of multifont be able to help out this theme? Different fonts for the players with remote screens come to mind, for starters... has anyone who works on the theme thought much at this point about any uses of this to improve readability and aesthetic appeal, once the patch is finally merged in? I wouldn't actually expect someone to have already been thinking about it, but it came to mind as I was browsing flyspray.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on April 07, 2008, 11:49:42 AM
well, we designed everything to use just one font. I don't really think this theme needs to use multiple fonts apart from the remote screens. I'm gonna experiment with it, anyway - just to be sure.

EDIT:

I don't think Rockbox should consider other themes when designing or defining its default. There are hundreds, if not more, of other themes and so many different things about them. Especially in an example like this, where eventually a technical means (the resize patch) will render it a non-issue. It's just a matter of time, more than anything else.


just read the flyspray entry of the bmp resize patch. does anybody know what's keeping this one from being commited?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on May 03, 2008, 06:10:13 PM
I just used cabbiev2 on an ipod mini (then checked on an ipod video), and noticed that two of the battery icons seem to be shown switched. Maybe it is just meant to be like that, but for me the icon meanings are:

Battery plugged and charging (not fully charged yet): (http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/2/11/1754365/battpl-320x240x16.png)

Battery plugged and fully charged: (http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/2/11/1754365/battch-320x240x16.png)

Battery unplugged and "fully" charged: (http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/2/11/1754365/batt07-320x240x16.png)

If this is true, then the first two icons are shown switched or inverted (at least in the ipod mini and video's versions), and since cabbiev2 is the default theme, it would be worth correcting that. If this is not true, it's just me having a weird way of interpreting icons  :) ... I mean, it is like that in different targets... no one said anything before...
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on May 04, 2008, 01:08:54 AM
you're right... the SHOULD be switched  :o. I never realized that before. The h300 version is the same. I guess most (if not all) ports have need the switch.
A good opportunity to change the %Cl line to official syntax (c is the only modifier that is supposed to be in there) as well.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on May 04, 2008, 01:22:35 AM
you're right... the SHOULD be switched  :o...

Showing (graphically) when the battery is fully charged is a great feature cabbiev2 has, and only few other themes have; in fact that's how I noticed; switching those icons will make it just clearer  ;)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on May 04, 2008, 07:07:41 AM
while I'm working on the wps files I could tweak them to use viewports as well... hope I'll be able to get all ports done next week.

just did the h300/ipod photo version..
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on May 04, 2008, 07:14:53 AM
My interpretation of the icons would have been that the one with the "plug" indicated charging was complete and the one with the "lightning flash" showed that charging was still in progress .... ???

The charging indications don't work on the 2nd Gen iPod, partly because the low level GPIO definitions haven't been set, but there's also something else that needs to be changed that I haven't figured out yet.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 04, 2008, 07:23:18 AM
To me a plug would indicate "You're not charging, you're done and running on AC power" while a lightning inside the battery would indicate charging.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on May 04, 2008, 07:26:01 AM
good point. maybe I need to come up with symbols that leave less room for interpretation?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 04, 2008, 07:38:09 AM
My suggestion would be to make the "on AC power" icon not actually be a battery at all. Just a plug on its own, or with a non-battery shaped surrounding.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on May 04, 2008, 10:18:31 AM
good point. maybe I need to come up with symbols that leave less room for interpretation?
My suggestion would be to make the "on AC power" icon not actually be a battery at all. Just a plug on its own, or with a non-battery shaped surrounding.
Well icons can be interpreted differently by different people, that's a fact; whatever is done with them (or not), I just think that cabbiev2 shouldn't lose the ability of showing when the battery is fully charged; I just thought that the second icon -amongst the available icons- would represent that better (and apparently ZincAlloy too), but I'm aware it could perfectly be as yapper and Llorean put it.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on May 04, 2008, 10:24:06 AM
I wouldn't comprimise a feature. But we do need to make these icons less confusing.
I really like Llorean's suggestion. what symbol should we keep for "charging"? the battery with the bolt of lightning or the battery with the plug symbol?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on May 04, 2008, 10:27:06 AM
A plug icon would probably make the most sense, and look nicer than just a lightning bolt. Maybe when it's fully charged it could blink/change color? Or given the sleek look of the theme, perhaps a plug with a "glow" around it for fully charged?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on May 04, 2008, 10:32:27 AM
Llorean's suggestion of a just plug symbol without a battery makes much more sense imho.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on May 04, 2008, 10:34:42 AM
what symbol should we keep for "charging"? the battery with the bolt of lightning or the battery with the plug symbol?
I would say stick with the bolt of lightning, as it implies 'activity' (at least to me)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on May 04, 2008, 10:38:45 AM
but with a plug symbol for "on AC power" the battery itself would imply activity as well
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on May 04, 2008, 10:41:52 AM
Llorean's suggestion of a just plug symbol without a battery makes much more sense imho.
That would be absolutely clear. "Plugged + battery fully charged" is a bit harder to represent with that clarity; for me it would be enough to display just that, "plugged" + "Full charge" in one icon, but that would be the plug inside a fully charged battery again (maybe it was just that the "lightning" icon would leave room for different interpretations)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 04, 2008, 01:13:09 PM
I think "Plug alone, no battery" for fully charged, and "Battery + Lightning" for charging means the least ambiguity, personally. If you have "Plug alone" and "Plug + battery" it's still slightly confusing. "Does the plug mean charging, and when it shows a full battery with it, it's done?" kinda thing.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: hhannah on May 04, 2008, 01:18:09 PM
I think "Plug alone, no battery" for fully charged, and "Battery + Lightning" for charging means the least ambiguity, personally. If you have "Plug alone" and "Plug + battery" it's still slightly confusing. "Does the plug mean charging, and when it shows a full battery with it, it's done?" kinda thing.
Plugged alone wouldn't say anything explicit about the battery, so some of us wouldn't read it as "it is plugged and the battery is fully charged"
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: crzyboyster on May 04, 2008, 01:21:56 PM
How about we get rid of the confusing icons altogether? Instead, we could write "CHG" for the icon that shows the battery as charging, "DNE" for the icon that has it plugged in and completed charging and just leave the full battery indicator alone?

We could use the same font used in the "Now Playing" titlebar.

(Note: The initials/names I gave were just quick examples that are debatable)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 04, 2008, 01:33:00 PM
Plug in with no picture of the battery when the battery is always previously displayed would say "The battery status is no longer being talked about" meaning simply "We're running explicitly on AC power." In some cases this is true (players you can shut off the battery and still run) but it would also mean "the battery is no longer involved in the power chain" which is what happens when it's done charging.

I don't see anything about removing the picture of the battery so that only AC is shown as NOT indicating that the battery is now not in use. It's far more obvious than two pictures that are both suggesting of electricity on top of a battery.

Text is probably worse since it becomes far more difficult for a non-English speaker to even guess what they mean.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on May 04, 2008, 01:58:43 PM
I think "Plug alone, no battery" for fully charged, and "Battery + Lightning" for charging means the least ambiguity, personally.
I agree.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on May 04, 2008, 03:58:31 PM
I think "Plug alone, no battery" for fully charged, and "Battery + Lightning" for charging means the least ambiguity, personally.
I agree.
Third
 ;)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on May 04, 2008, 04:25:25 PM
I think "Plug alone, no battery" for fully charged, and "Battery + Lightning" for charging means the least ambiguity, personally.
I agree.
Third
 ;)

Me too
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on May 05, 2008, 12:11:49 AM
Llorean's suggestion of a just plug symbol without a battery makes much more sense imho.

That's what I said, I was agreeing.

Anyhoo, fourth'D.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on May 05, 2008, 12:23:06 AM
alright. I'm gonna do it that way.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Zardoz on June 08, 2008, 08:13:16 AM
i think cabbbie v3 is the most elegant (on a black ipod)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Rock_sansac200 on July 19, 2008, 11:14:55 PM
ok i will read the how to create a wps or theme manual. I will make a good one for the sansa c200 (if nothing goes wrong).
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: tonsOfSparks on July 28, 2008, 11:06:12 AM
ok i will read the how to create a wps or theme manual. I will make a good one for the sansa c200 (if nothing goes wrong).

It would be nice to have a lighter theme than the default one (cabbie). But I would be happy just to have more themes for c200, - period. good luck and thanks for your effort.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on July 28, 2008, 10:44:14 PM
That actually is an interesting idea/gave me an idea. What would cabbie look like if it was made with a white background, with dark text (keeping the yellow for line selectors and WPS buttons)? I tried to do a mockup quickly for myself, but I'm very rusty with image manipulation (and "clear backdrop" only got rid of the gradient in menus). ZincAlloy, I'm wondering if this might interest you or someone else enough to at least make a mockup of a white background WPS screen? I could definitely see this being popular with anyone who might enjoy the theme, but would find the inversion of color easier on the eyes (or something).
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on July 29, 2008, 01:41:20 AM
ugly..
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on July 29, 2008, 01:45:07 AM
I don't think it's *ugly* per se - but yellow on a white background isn't a good contrast, so I don't think making it into a light theme is as easy as DancemasterGlenn originally imagined. I think it has potential ;)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Ste- on July 29, 2008, 03:24:44 AM
What about a lightish blue colour instead of yellow. ala the colour of the forums.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on July 29, 2008, 06:57:55 AM
a whole lot better
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Zardoz on August 13, 2008, 01:04:44 AM
stark yellow on white doesn't work for me either. maybe a slightly softened background (off white?) with a mustard font....
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: cowbutt on August 13, 2008, 09:15:19 AM
I've just modified the rwps remote theme from cabbiev2 to display a bit more information:

(http://www.assursys.co.uk/people/alex/cabbiev2-ajb.png)

More details in Flyspray FS#9276 (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9276).

I'm pretty content with how this works for me, so if anyone wants to use it to modify the existing default version of cabbiev2, be my guest.

One thing which I'm not entirely happy about is if the artist's name is long (where 'Anathema' is in the screenshot), it'll cause the entire line to scroll, which I think is a bit ugly. It'd be nice to be  able to specify a maximum width in pixels for the text field, or have that part of the line scroll seperately...
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on August 16, 2008, 06:31:58 AM
The above post got me thinking... I would also like to see the 128x64 cabbiev2 port more "complete" as there are also some possible future targets (like the ifp or the Logik Dax) which would have such a screen as main screen. Since viewports there is no need to place everything line wise and so I came up with the following two:
(http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10030.0;attach=3154)
These are just mockups with the use of the 112x64 graphics (already slightly edited) but you'll get the idea. I think it is possible to use the complete screen up to the border of what is seen in the sim because on monochrome/greyscale displays you have some "spacing" through the display, the used area is not starting right at the border of the casing. This is what the slightly darker border around the actual screen should show in the mockup. What do you think - and which one of the two would be nicer? (I prefer the right variant a tad bit but like to know other opinions before investing more time.)


And my other question/suggestion was related to showing remote hold. As said earlier in the thread I'd like a way to see this information here's my idea, taking the biggest graphics:
(http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10030.0;attach=3156)
That is from top: main hold, no hold, remote hold (only) and both parts on hold. This way nothing would change for those who don't use the remote. Of course this would need adapting to smaller screens and other colour depths but I'd try, maybe it needs character on the very small screens though.

Please tell me what you think. :)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on August 16, 2008, 06:50:30 AM
good work, pixelma! I also like the right variant better.
maybe we should use a character (R) to indicate remote hold on all targets. what does it look like?

btw, here's the new plug icon...
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on August 16, 2008, 06:59:44 AM
I like the right variant too.

The hold icons are also good - it's a clever way to show both switch states.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on August 16, 2008, 10:29:43 AM
Great new stuff! I'd agree with using an R to show remote lock in place of the smaller lock. A small R would fit right under the curve of the "unlocked" icon, and wouldn't look as visually busy as the two locks overlapping. Awesome stuff, guys.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ghen on August 20, 2008, 08:09:24 AM
A suggestion for the Cabbie v2 WPS: I'd like to see a disc activity led, could the Rockbox logo be used for this? (turns yellow during activity)  This way we don't waste extra space on targets that don't have this functionality.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on August 20, 2008, 05:00:20 PM
Added my Iriver RWPS version to the same flyspray task (FS#9276 (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9276)), please try out and comment. I had the chance to see it on a real remote and as I thought spacing is no problem (I mean if e.g. the "now playing" progress bar seems to stick at the border in the sim remote display it doesn't look like this on the real thing).

A suggestion for the Cabbie v2 WPS: I'd like to see a disc activity led, could the Rockbox logo be used for this? (turns yellow during activity)  This way we don't waste extra space on targets that don't have this functionality.
I'd like to see the info too sometimes.  This suggestion would work on colour,  greyscale (turning the logo darker), maybe the m:robe100 where you could fill the logo which is hollow otherwise - but the small monochrome screens don't even show a logo.... Another suggestion would be to integrate this into the "Now playing" bar, similar to how the Ultimate theme does. (I'd already have an idea for the above mentioned RWPS in case.)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: petur on August 22, 2008, 05:26:39 PM
I just committed the right variant, I liked it more too.... :)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on August 27, 2008, 12:04:16 PM
I finally made the plug icons for the color targets : http://www.naturalbornyoers.com/forumpics/cabbieupdates.zip

also included in the zip: new .wps files for color targets using helvr10 up till now. it seems like the default theme should be able to display greek, cyrillic and hebrew glyphs - which helvr10 doesn't have. I don't like how nimbus looks with this theme, so I modified the .wps files to use helvr12.  These should work just fine, but somebody should better check on the actual targets, just to be sure.

I've also tweaked the ipod 5g wps to make better use of viewports.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ghen on August 29, 2008, 05:51:04 AM
Could you add a clock to the WPS also? (for targets that support it)

In fact, a clock is the only reason why I'd use another theme than Cabbie.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: dannyboi on September 07, 2008, 11:34:33 PM
Is there a theme for the 5.5G Ipod that has font that is large as the original firmware, but manages to fit everything altogether on the screen?

I tried font 18 for the default Cabbie theme, but that meant some album names and next songs were missing from the WPS screen.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 17, 2008, 01:36:17 PM
I realize that this "contest" has pretty much been over since CabbieV2 was committed and made the new default, however, I'd like to submit a theme I've been working on recently, if not for a new default, at least for possible inclusion.

I've only got it made for one target screen size currently (160x128x16, the iriver H10 20GB and iAudio X5 screens) but I plan to make this theme for the other targets if people think it's worth possibly commiting to SVN.

Also, I don't currently have a name for this theme (any suggestions..?), and I'm looking for a little criticism/suggestions for improvement, particularly for the status icons for the shuffle, repeat, and crossfade modes. Any and all ideas would be appreciated.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: LambdaCalculus379 on December 17, 2008, 01:41:07 PM
Wow, very nice and pleasant to look at. Maybe for a future major release, we can use a default theme like this one.

I think we should still have the Tango icons display on the menu, to keep consistency with Cabbiev2. This will also make it appear a little more pleasing to users.

Maybe you can call this "Cabbie Modern"?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 17, 2008, 01:59:30 PM
I never much liked showing the icons so I always keep them disabled. I suppose I can tweak the theme to use the Tango icons (right now it just defaults them to the original, it doesn't disable showing them).

I'm not entirely sure I'd want to associate it with the previous versions of the Cabbie themes (it wasn't intended to resemble them too much, the colour scheme is based off the logo's main colour and the layout is one I've found works rather nicely for me...), however I'll keep it in mind unless better suggestions come along.

Any suggestions on how to improve the status icons along the bottom..? (I'm not too happy with them, really, since I'm not sure I could make them fit too well on smaller screened targets...)

EDIT: Just to update the menu image to show the icons...
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: MarcGuay on December 17, 2008, 02:06:49 PM
I think it looks better without the icons - the colours take away from it's simplicity.  For names, the lurking logo summons words like Stealth, Smog, Cloud, etc.

As for the WPS images/icons, I think part of the problem is that you have a light colour on a colour.  Maybe darken up the foreground yellow?  But then again, it kind of suits the smoky aura.  (Check my art-class lingo).
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 17, 2008, 02:19:18 PM
I'm kind of liking the sound of "Stealth", but I'll leave myself open for now.

As for the WPS images/icons, I think part of the problem is that you have a light colour on a colour.  Maybe darken up the foreground yellow?  But then again, it kind of suits the smoky aura.  (Check my art-class lingo).

I don't think the status icons are difficult to see, if that's what you mean, at least not when the various modes are enabled (the disabled modes are intended to blend into the background a bit...) I'm more worried that the larger icons might not fit so well on smaller screens (most notably the H10 5/6GB, since they're the same height as this, but narrower...), and I'd prefer to have the various modes as part of the image rather than a text label beside it.  I might have to build a sim for the H10 5/6GB and see what I can come up with.

I definitely prefer it without the icons as well, they do detract a little from the look I was going for. Maybe we can put that up to a vote: Icons, or no icons?

Always up for suggestions, since there seems to be some interest in making this work.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Chronon on December 17, 2008, 02:48:50 PM
I agree that text plus graphical indicators just wastes real estate (regarding the playback mode indicators).  You can get the information across purely graphically.

I also like the main menu without icons for this theme. 

I am curious, though, about how well this will transfer over to gray scale and monochrome screens.  I guess it won't look so smoky or stealthy on those screens.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 17, 2008, 03:17:13 PM
You're definitely right about that, unfortunately that part of the theme's look won't be able to be transferred. The layout of the theme, however, should still look nice even on those targets.

Yet another vote for no icons, I see...

I got a quick port done to the H10 5/6GB, though I haven't changed the status icons yet (it's near impossible to do graphic work with a laptop touchpad, I need my mouse...) Let me know what you think.

Any suggestions on status icons, possibly..?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: audio-i on December 17, 2008, 03:18:43 PM
I really like it! Very good layout, nice graphics. As for what you ask about
...I'm looking for a little criticism/suggestions for improvement, particularly for the status icons for the shuffle, repeat, and crossfade modes. Any and all ideas would be appreciated.
maybe the repeat, shuffle etc icons would look better if they were narrower, they seem to be a little oversized compared to the text font. Also like MarcGuay said, I'd try a little more fore/background contrast (the new port seems better??)

And finally, since I'm a "next-song-info" fan, do you think you could fit it there? It might become cluttered i know, but what if you would make the progress bar shorter and place the current and total track times on the sides... it would liberate one row... just a thought...
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 17, 2008, 03:28:50 PM
I'm not sure that next track info is crucial for a potential default theme, honestly, and it would look a little too cluttered if I moved the track times to either side of the progress bar to make space for another line (the progress bar is only 8 pixels high, the font is 12.)

I'll get to work on making better icons when I get home and have my mouse available to me, since the touchpad's too finicky to work with. The icons will probably be a little smaller/narrower so there will be some extra space available. Any suggestions what to do with that space, or should I just leave it..?

Also, are there any layout changes that I should make or is this acceptable..? (Excluding making another line to stuff in next track info, since I think that would be too cluttered...)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on December 17, 2008, 03:34:52 PM
It would look a lot cleaner without the rockbox logo in the background.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 17, 2008, 03:41:28 PM
How about if I were to make it even more faded into the background, so it's _just_ hinting at being there? I'd rather keep it there if I can, but if it must go, any suggestions on how to include the Rockbox name/logo somehow else?

EDIT: Such as like this...

EDIT the 2nd: Since a number of people have commented on the status icons not standing out enough from the background, I'm planning to make the bottom gradient a bit darker, hopefully that will fix that. (Note that the attachment doesn't reflect this upcoming change, I will post those updates sometime tomorrow.) I'll be including the more-faded logo change as well, and the new icons. Are there any other changes people would like to see made now (since I'm making a handful already and I can always make more at the same time), or should we wait until I get these updates posted?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on December 17, 2008, 04:46:27 PM
Monkey-wrench man says:
"Must we use the same colour palette again!?"
;)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: terrence1019 on December 17, 2008, 06:42:32 PM
Nice theme!

Recommendation:
1) Why not create your own iconset?
2) Love the Rockbox background effect. Keep it!
3) Love the solid yellow gradient bar. Keep it!
4) Change the repeat and shuffle icons.

Since it's mainly black-and-yellow, how about BumbleBee? Or Hornet?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: wpyh on December 18, 2008, 11:55:24 AM
I have two suggestions that may seem "backward". However, they actually increase usability:

1. Make the background darker and the gradient less contrast between the darkest and lightest parts. This will make it easier to read the text.

2. Make the gradient bar's gradient less contrast between the top and the bottom. This will also make it easier to read the text.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 18, 2008, 12:33:51 PM
Monkey-wrench man says:
"Must we use the same colour palette again!?"
;)


You tell me, I'm always open for suggestions. If you know of a better colour palette that still says "This is Rockbox!" then let me know of it and I'll give it a test. This theme is by no means set in stone yet.

Recommendation:
1) Why not create ur own iconset?
2) Luv the Rockbox background effect. Keep it!
3) Luv the solid yellow gradient bar. Keep it!
4) Change the repeat and shuffle icons.

Since it's mainly black-and-yellow, how about BumbleBee? Or Hornet?


I've already changed the icons, I'm keeping the gradient bar and I'm keeping the faded logo in the background (though I made it a ltitle more faded so it doesn't stand out too much...) I'm not too inclined to make my own icon set (there are a lot of icons I'd have to make, and I can't tell what half of them are for, and I don't even like using the icons anyway.)

I'm not sure about either of those names, the colours are the only association to either, and I may change them if I get a better palette suggestion.

I have two suggestions that may seem "backward". However, they actually increase usability:

1. Make the background darker and the gradient less contrast between the darkest and lightest parts. This will make it easier to read the text.

2. Make the gradient bar's gradient less contrast between the top and the bottom. This will also make it easier to read the text.


The gradient bar is already fairly low contrast, and as far as I can tell the text stands out enough already (black on yellow seems easily enough read.) As for the background, I've already changed it.

These are the updated screen shots with all the changes I made. I'm still not too happy with the status icons (worried a little about scalability, at least going smaller...) I may have to start with the smallest target screen and work up from there.

Anyway, tell me what you like, tell me what you don't like, offer any suggestions and I'll do what I can with them. I have my mouse with me today so I'll actually be able to do the finer graphic work.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: audio-i on December 18, 2008, 12:58:32 PM
Like the new icons!
...
The theme became darker... first impression, looks a LOT like cabbie, so about the colour palette... perhaps something clearer? Maybe the forums colour palette as an example... keeping of course black & yellow (orange?) here and there...

I'm not sure that next track info is crucial for a potential default theme...
I don't know about others, but ipod users appreciate this feature because the OF does not have it (one of the many Rockbox distinctive features)... I guess I'd put the next track info below the AA instead of the track title, and move the title up replacing bitrate-codec or genre-year, but then again it's a personal preference and I guess with your layout it's very easy for a user who wants it to make that change
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 18, 2008, 01:15:01 PM
The theme's a little darker because people were mentioning that the contrast between the status icons along the bottom and the background wasn't high enough, and rather than darkening the icons I went with darkening the background.

If I were to keep all of the yellow/gold elements (the bars and icons) and change the background colour to a blue gradient somewhat matching the site's colours... I'll whip up some updated images and take some screen shots and see what people think.

I'm not inclined to put next track above a progress bar, I find that a little confusing, even with "Next: " prefacing it, and unless I really adjust the layout, I can't slip it in below. I'd prefer to leave it out, but the theme's not impossible to change if people want to add it themselves later.

Might as well ask, though... Are there a lot of votes for adding in next track info or should it be left out and left to anyone who really wants it to add it..?

EDIT: New screen shots with the changed palette (Note: The WPS shot is a mock-up, I didn't want to redo all the images yet until I know if this is wanted or not.) I had to change the track title colour to the main WPS font colour since the yellow didn't stand out enough. I think I prefer the black background over the one using the site colours... What do you all think..?

EDIT the 2nd: Actually, I may try removing the gradient and just use the darker of the two colours... Do people like the blue and yellow, or should I stick with the black?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: audio-i on December 18, 2008, 02:42:57 PM
I personally like that a lot. Very different, and still very "Rockbox".

The icon contrast problem reappears; how would the inverse gradient look (clear top - dark bottom)?
And for font colour variations or emphasizing, the blue colour used in the forums for nicknames works both on blue and white backgrounds... perhaps white font could also be used. Black works anyway.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 18, 2008, 02:53:29 PM
I suppose I could try reversing the gradient, it might help.  I'll also try the blue for the track title and see if it stands out enough from the background. Expect updates in a little while.

EDIT: I think it works, at least for the icons, the font colour doesn't fit too nicely...  What do people think, go with the blue gradient, or go with black?

EDIT the 2nd: As I'm working on a port to the Sansa c200 I discover there isn't enough space at the bottom of the screen for the status icons (using an identical layout), so I'm moving them to the top bar. This will also free a line on all targets with larger screens for a next-track line, so some people should be happy with this.  I'll get the c200 port screen shots posted some time tomorrow.  I've decided to go with the blue gradient, since it actually looks rather nice, if anyone has any objections, please bring them up.

Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: wpyh on December 18, 2008, 10:00:27 PM
Hey, the blue gradient actually looks nice :) I was referring to the dark background and the bar still having too much of a gradient, but it looks nicer with the blue background. It's more "refreshing" that way.

A few suggestions for the new background:
1. With the blue background, the Rockbox logo stands out too much -- would be better if it's made more subtler.
2. Make the icons visible in the menu, since it's the default behaviour IIRC. This way we could see it more clearly.
3. Make the gradient bar have less of a gradient. I've attached an edited test_menu.png that more or less describes it. (it's hand-edited so the gradient is coarse)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on December 19, 2008, 03:17:29 AM
I very much like the blue background, but I find the logo behind it distracting and that it makes it harder to read the actual text.  Perhaps it would be better if it were more subtle?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 19, 2008, 12:32:29 PM
I can make it more subtle, though you'll have to wait until the next batch of screen shots.

I'll also reduce the gradient bars a little so the gradient's a little more subtle.

There have been several votes to leave out the icons, but the theme is configured that it doesn't show or hide them (they'll be shown or hidden according to one's settings), and it sets the tango icon set (on the chance one uses a theme with a different set.)

These are the screen shots for the c200 port. I'm unhappy with how the status icons turned out (note I also changed the layout of the top bar and put the volume as a text pop-up where the total time normally shows, I don't like that much either...) I think I may try putting them at the bottom similar to the H10 20GB port, between the time elapsed and time remaining. Would this be acceptable, or should I put the icons on one side and the time elapsed/time remaining (or time elapsed/total time) on the other..? (Note that this means I'm not going to be including the next track info like I said earlier, sorry to those who really want it.)

EDIT: I have updated screen shots for the H10 20GB with some of the suggested changes, I altered the gradient slightly (slightly more subtle gradient as well as a little closer to the logo's yellow-orange colour) and made the faded logo more subtle. I also altered the status icons slightly, and made the title text blueish to stand out a bit from the rest of the text. If someone can bump the thread so I can make a new post to post those updated images that would be appreciated.

EDIT the 2nd: Updated images have replaced the old c200 screen shots, sorry to anyone who didn't see them but I think these are much better. Please tell me what you think, anything that needs changing and any other complaints/suggestions you might have.

I think I'm nearly ready to make the rest of the ports, so unless there are any changes that need to be made, this should be close to what the final ports will look like.


EDIT the 3rd: Seems my request for a bump has been granted. I'll be posting the screen shots in a new post after all.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on December 19, 2008, 05:25:33 PM
Consider it bumped :)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 19, 2008, 05:31:05 PM
If I had waited just 5 minutes longer... Anyway...

Here are the updated screen shots for both the H10 and c200 themes, I hope these impress and I'm nearly finished making changes.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on December 19, 2008, 05:43:39 PM
Very nice.   I use and like cabbiev2, but I think I prefer these - I really like the blue and the logo is now subtle enough not to distract.  Good job!

Edit:  I've tried this on an actual c200, and it looks very nice indeed.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: audio-i on December 19, 2008, 07:36:17 PM
Nice indeed! I always wanted to use sort of the forums colours in a theme, and you did it quite well ;)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 20, 2008, 12:27:48 PM
Alright, it looks like things are nearly set then. All I need is a name (any suggestions are definitely appreciated) and possibly a little more approval (or any concerns people might still have brought up and worked out) and I'll get started on the rest of the ports.

Anyone have any objections to my making a Wiki page to dump screen shots and zips on for people to test on target as I go along?

EDIT: I'm still looking for name suggestions. I've come up with "Rockbox Modern" as a possible name, but I'm not sure I like it (or what you all might think of it,) so any better suggestions (or votes for it) are appreciated. As soon as a name's been settled on, (and any outstanding issues are brought up and fixed,) I'll get started on a Wiki page (as long as no one objects) and getting the other ports made.

EDIT the 2nd: Since no one's brought up any name suggestions or outstanding issues, I'm going to get started on the rest of the ports. I'll get a wiki page up tomorrow some time, so if anyone has any name suggestions _please_ post them now so I can take a look and possibly pick one. If there are no suggestions by the time I get the Wiki page started, I'll settle with the name I've come up with, "Rockbox Modern".

EDIT the 3rd: I'm posting the screen shots and theme downloads to the DefaultWPS wiki page (possibly temporary, but it's a good place for them for now) so I'll only post short messages here when I get another port done. Currently I've got the H10 20GB/iAudio X5 (without remote wps currently) and c200 ports up, and I'm currently working on the remote wps for the iAudio.  There's a section for discussion on the Wiki page, or you can bring up any concerns here.

EDIT #4: iAudio remote WPS finished, currently working on H10 5/6GB port.

EDIT #5: H10 5/6GB port finished. Will probably get started on the iPod nano port next.  Could someone please bump the thread?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: GodEater on December 24, 2008, 01:39:05 PM
*Bumping* :)

Not just a pointless post either I hope - since I just wanted to say I also really like this.

I don't like the name you've chosen though (sorry to spring that on you so late, this NZ time zone thing has knocked me for six!)

It may seem trivial but "Modern" only applies whilst it's new and fresh - at some point someone will come along and make a newer theme, and then this won't be modern anymore. Perhaps something which echoes the coolness of the blues being used now would suit better ?

"Rockbox chilled"
"Rockbox fresh"
"Rockbox breeze"

Any of those any good ?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: terrence1019 on December 24, 2008, 05:03:36 PM
Perhaps something which echoes the coolness of the blues being used now would suit better ?

"Rockbox chilled"
"Rockbox fresh"
"Rockbox breeze"

Any of those any good ?

How about "Rockback"?  ;D

I still say the shuffle and repeat icons don't complement your theme as best as they should.  :(
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on December 27, 2008, 12:47:23 PM
I'm not certain I like any of those names (though if I had to pick one, I'd probably pick "Rockbox Fresh"), and I've already got a few of the ports done and up on the DefaultWPS wiki page, so I'd rather not have to rename them and re-upload them unless it's for a bug-fix or something.

There's not very much I can do about the shuffle and repeat icons, either, since I do not like trying to use anti-aliased graphics (especially on my H10's rather small screen), and there aren't very many graphics I could fit in there that still show what mode is what.

I'll put things on hold for a bit until we can get some of these sorted out a little more acceptably, though. Any suggestions for shuffle, repeat, and crossfade icons are appreciated (if you post a small graphic here so I can see it...), as well as name suggestions (I'll go through renaming if I end up redoing graphics, since I'll have to re-upload the themes anyway), so give me all you've got.

EDIT: Still waiting for suggestions for names and possible replacement graphics for the shuffle, repeat, and crossfade icons. I'll hold up going forward until sometime after Jan 1st, so if anyone has any concerns, suggestions, or anything else to say about the theme, you all have plenty of time.

If I don't see anything by the 2nd (or whenever I get around to it again) I'll move on with what I have, and if people make suggestions I'll work them in as I go.

Don't forget that there are some previews and downloads available on the DefaultWPS (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome?topic=DefaultWPS) wiki page, as well as an area for discussion/crticism/suggestions (if you'd rather put them there than here.)

EDIT the 2nd: iPod Nano theme is up on the DefaultWPS page, I'm still using the current name and icons, though I'm open for suggestions if anyone at all has any (since I know people don't really like what I have currently...)

Can someone please bump this thread, and hopefully stir up a little more interest in this (possibly so I can get some better name suggestions and some better-working icons)?

EDIT the 3rd: Due to unforeseen circumstances (which I should have seen... my laptop's usable lifespan had run a little short), work on this theme has to be indefinitely halted.  I'll keep an eye on this thread in case people have suggestions, but be advised that any suggestions will only be noted until such time as I have a new computer and can pick up and continue working.  Thanks for your cooperation in this matter.

EDIT the 4th: I managed to "fix" my laptop so it's usable again, so work will continue shortly. (Just as soon as I get some workable status icons that fit the theme...) I'm thinking of doing a little rework on the theme, hopefully I can work out some better status icons than what I've got (but I'm not making promises...). Any suggestions are much appreciated! Rework, no, but I'll try to fix the icons... I could really use some suggestions since I can't come up with anything...

Could someone _please_ bump the thread so it shows up as new posts again..?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 06, 2009, 05:17:52 AM
Every time you edit your post, the (new) tag shows up next to it again when browsing the subforum. So, there's no real need for a bump.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on January 06, 2009, 12:37:49 PM
Ah, I wasn't aware of that... Thanks for informing me.

I'll stop bugging for bumps then, unless I need to post screen shots or something...
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on January 06, 2009, 07:32:59 PM
You should be able to edit your post to add screen shots to by way of the "modify" button instead of using the quick-edit button to the side of the text. I think.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on January 07, 2009, 12:11:46 PM
I'm aware of that, but I meant in cases where my most recent post already had 4 screen shots and I couldn't post any more.

Then again, since I'm posting screen shots and theme packages to the DefaultWPS wiki page that won't be an issue anymore anyway...

Speaking of which, I'm going to start working on the port for the iriver H300 and similarly screen-sized players shortly. I'm still looking for better status icon suggestions for shuffle, repeat, and crossfade, if anyone's got anything that would suit this theme better than what I've come up with...
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: terrence1019 on January 07, 2009, 11:29:39 PM
karashata, I can make a recommendation to use the shuffle and repeat icons from this theme:

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIpod5g#Escape_Pod_Plus

I say, just do your magic, and paint them gold. Modify the size to suit  ;)

Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on January 08, 2009, 12:37:06 PM
I can think of a couple reasons why not to use those icons...

1. The shuffle icon for that theme is the image I use to represent crossfade (since in my opinion it resembles one track being faded out while the other is being faded in, rather than tracks being shuffled...)

2. There's no way I could scale those down to the smaller targets, keeping the graphics aliased (I hate anti-aliasing small images on small screens) and still resembling those images.

I will try to come up with something that will fit the smallest screened colour target (the c200) and work up from there, I think I'll adjust the repeat and crossfade images some so that the mode indicator doesn't cover the rest of the icon (though I'm not sure how that will fit... We'll see what I can do...)

EDIT: I've made some changes to the icons, I'm posting screen shots (from the c200) here to get some opinions on the changes before I go through with it. I'm not the happiest with these over the old ones, but space is limited and I did the best I could with it.

Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: terrence1019 on January 09, 2009, 10:19:37 PM
Hey! Now that looks good!  :D

Don't want to make it a chore, but just make the circle for the repeat-all icon a little thinner, as opposed to how bold and thick it looks.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Zardoz on January 10, 2009, 03:34:11 AM
The above post got me thinking... I would also like to see the 128x64 cabbiev2 port more "complete" as there are also some possible future targets (like the ifp or the Logik Dax) which would have such a screen as main screen. Since viewports there is no need to place everything line wise and so I came up with the following two:
(http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10030.0;attach=3154)
These are just mockups with the use of the 112x64 graphics (already slightly edited) but you'll get the idea. I think it is possible to use the complete screen up to the border of what is seen in the sim because on monochrome/greyscale displays you have some "spacing" through the display, the used area is not starting right at the border of the casing. This is what the slightly darker border around the actual screen should show in the mockup. What do you think - and which one of the two would be nicer? (I prefer the right variant a tad bit but like to know other opinions before investing more time.)


And my other question/suggestion was related to showing remote hold. As said earlier in the thread I'd like a way to see this information here's my idea, taking the biggest graphics:
(http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10030.0;attach=3156)
That is from top: main hold, no hold, remote hold (only) and both parts on hold. This way nothing would change for those who don't use the remote. Of course this would need adapting to smaller screens and other colour depths but I'd try, maybe it needs character on the very small screens

I like the left hand one. Why does a WPS need a banner saying 'now playing' when it's obviously playing and displays play/pause symbols anyway? I think it's a waste of space adding it in.

@karashata
I suggest 'Bliss' as a name for your theme as it has Blue elements and incorporates Rockbox philosophy
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: karashata on January 10, 2009, 12:28:16 PM
Don't want to make it a chore, but just make the circle for the repeat-all icon a little thinner, as opposed to how bold and thick it looks.

I'll fiddle with the graphics a bit and thin those out, see how it looks...

I suggest 'Bliss' as a name for your theme as it has Blue elements and incorporates Rockbox philosophy

I think I like that, so I'll swap that in place of "Modern".

Work on the H300 and other same-size platforms is on hold while I redo the status icons, once I've gotten those finalized I'll continue porting the theme. Thanks to everyone so far who have helped me get this going!

EDIT: New status icons, screen shots below. Tell me what you think!
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Chronon on January 13, 2009, 03:32:08 PM
I like the left hand one. Why does a WPS need a banner saying 'now playing' when it's obviously playing and displays play/pause symbols anyway? I think it's a waste of space adding it in.

You're entitled to your preference, but take note that the bar at the top is also the progress bar.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Zardoz on January 13, 2009, 08:38:10 PM
You're entitled to your preference, but take note that the bar at the top is also the progress bar.

That's a good point and I'm aware of it but I thought the screenshots I was referring to were for the Archos targets up to Ondio and the 'left-hand' one had a progress bar located lower down which I thought fitted better with the other elements on there. (looks very like the RemoteWPS I looked forward to on the cowon x5 ;)) I was asked for my opinion so I gave it!!

EDIT::
......And my other question/suggestion was related to showing remote hold. As said earlier in the thread I'd like a way to see this information here's my idea, taking the biggest graphics:
(http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10030.0;attach=3156)
That is from top: main hold, no hold, remote hold (only) and both parts on hold. This way nothing would change for those who don't use the remote. Of course this would need adapting to smaller screens and other colour depths but I'd try, maybe it needs character on the very small screens
 

I just wanted to add I think those hold/remote-hold icons are great. And I don't want to sound like a naysayer, just added my tuppence worth. 

peace

(said often by hippies)
(possible instruction to 'Kill All Hippies' may follow)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Chronon on January 13, 2009, 09:50:00 PM
That's a good point and I'm aware of it

Okay. 
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Zardoz on January 13, 2009, 10:26:58 PM
Okay ;)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: bertrik on January 29, 2009, 02:39:32 PM
Can anyone have a look at this modified version of the cabbie v2 wps for the sansa clip?
I'm talking about this wps (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9763?getfile=18408) in FS#9763 (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9763).

The clip has an 128x64x1 OLED display on a black background. The funny thing is that the top 16 lines are yellow, below that are two empty (black) lines and then there's the other 48 lines with cyan pixels. The original 128x64x1 cabbiev2 wps causes the artist name to be split between the yellow and the cyan part.

The modified cabbiev2 wps moves the time/remaining time indicator to the top of the screen, so it sits together with the "now playing" progress bar in the yellow part. The screenshot shows what can be done with unmodified icons (just a modified wps). Pixelma suggested on IRC that the icons could use a little modification too, moving the "highlight" on the top of the icons (e.g. play icon) from top to bottom, so it becomes more of a shadow than a highlight (activated pixels are bright on a dark background).
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Chronon on January 29, 2009, 03:01:03 PM
I think it's the most logical change, given the peculiarities of the screen.  I also think pixelma's idea is a good one.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: rasher on March 20, 2009, 12:35:23 PM
Most of the relevant people should have already seen this, but I'll post it in this thread just to make sure no one is left out. Earlier today I sent out the following mail to contributors of cabbiev2 and other themes that are currently bundled with Rockbox. If you have contributed to cabbiev2 and did not receive such a mail, please read it and respond here with your reply:

Hello,

I'm writing because I believe you've contributed to the Rockbox theme
cabbiev2. To clear up the licensing for Rockbox themes, we would like
to ask permission to use your work under the terms of the Creative Commons
Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license
(http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/).

The reason we want to do this, is that the current licensing of themes has
become a bit of a mess, and licensing of the themes we bundle with Rockbox
is if possible even more confusing. The plan is to stop bundling any
themes but the default, and move everything to the new theme site which is
moving ever closer. To ensure a less confusing situation and maximize the
possibility to share work between themes, we want all themes on that site
to carry the same licensing terms, and have selected the Creative Commons
Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 as the most suitable.

Please reply with your response to this request, thank you for your time.

If you have time, it would be nice if you could check the following mail,
and see if there were other contributors that I've forgotten:

http://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive/rockbox-dev-archive-2009-03/0102.shtml
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on March 23, 2010, 10:32:34 AM
I'm using a version with slightly modified viewport positions and dimensions at the moment. Personally I feel it's an improvement. What do you think? Should I do this for all targets?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on March 23, 2010, 11:43:42 AM
It looks weird to me to see the "m" in "Bathroom" cut off suddenly even though there's no visual indication that the line should be clipped shorter than the edge of the screen.

If there were some sort of visible frame or boundary that it was clipped to stay within that would be one thing, but a simple invisible line that text does not cross just seems odd to me.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on March 23, 2010, 12:29:14 PM
Right, I get what you mean. I have the same problem with the text scrolling beyond the borders of the screen. It just looks odd to me. I do see the border of the screen as the natural boundary, but I feel that everything needs some clearance. It just appears to be neater to me.

On very small screens I'd probably let it scroll to the very edge of the screen, though. Otherwise the info viewport would get ridiculously small.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on March 23, 2010, 12:35:53 PM
I'd recommend at the very least not changing it for any players you don't have physical access to - it's impossible to tell how it actually looks (in terms of clearance) without the actual player to judge on.

But I really think that if you want to have the text start vanishing before the screen edge, you need to introduce some sort of visual queue that it's going to happen (perhaps dimming or darkening the backdrop across the viewport area so that it's clear where text is constrained on both the left and right edges).


As well, I don't see it as the text "scrolling beyond the borders of the screen" but rather that the borders of the screen are a natural edge where it stops. For one thing, if you decrease that, lines that didn't scroll previously will start scrolling now.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on May 12, 2010, 10:19:35 AM
Bumpety bump!

Cabbie needs a fm skin for those targets that have radio! any volunteers?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Eugene C on May 12, 2010, 12:04:26 PM
Bumpety bump!

Cabbie needs a fm skin for those targets that have radio! any volunteers?
If I knew how, I would...
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on May 12, 2010, 02:54:16 PM
do we need any new icons for this?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Strife89 on May 12, 2010, 04:06:20 PM
I have some free time tomorrow and maybe this evening), so I'll try to chalk something up. :)

I should be on IRC a lot from here on through the rest of the week.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: [Saint] on May 12, 2010, 07:43:51 PM
Q: "Do we need any new icons for this?"
A: "Yep, quite a few IIUC"


ZincAlloy,
Do you have SVGs of the original CabbieV2 by any chance? I'd like to start work on this, but I'd also like it to be as close as possible (no obvious transitions (colour/brightness/etc)) to the original theme...

The only way I can think to achieve this without using SVGs (if you have them) is by chopping the cabbie WPS to bits and reusing bits of it, which is fine, but a little hacky.

EDIT: Nowhere the need for Icons as I had thought...only an "%?ts<is stereo|>" icon would be much use.


[St.]
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on May 12, 2010, 08:49:10 PM
I dont think it will need new icons..
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on May 20, 2010, 01:01:12 AM
I think it needs a new icon for "Radio playing" and on some players for "Radio muted" in the list or bitmap strip for playback status. If you also add a "Recording" and "Recording paused" icon to those it could also help an SBS "port".

A mono/stereo icon would be nice too and I suggest using the space of the repeat or shuffle status icons for this.

It is about the general design, I volunteer for adapting to greyscale and monochrome again.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on May 20, 2010, 07:00:17 AM
http://imagebin.ca/view/HEEi0vO.html and http://imagebin.ca/view/NIBiZGe.html are my current WIP fm screens... I'm not sure where the radio art should go, and the RDS info...?

Also, I think we need at minimum new icons for: 1) radio tuned/not tuned, 2) stereo/mono, 3) scan/preset mode.
for 1 it would be nice if it was something which could be used as a signal meter (when/if that patch ever gets in)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on May 27, 2010, 01:19:31 PM
here's what I've come up with so far. no idea what the scan/preset icon is supposed to look like ???
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on May 28, 2010, 01:45:26 AM
they look good.. are the rings on the top row supposed to be for mono/stereo? I think it would be better if they were the same size.. maybe half a ring fo mono or something?

as for scan/preset mode.. umm.. what about using the shuffle icon for scan and a straight line for preset?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on May 28, 2010, 02:46:08 AM
Yes, the rings are for stereo/mono. TV guides here use the symbol with the two entwined rings for stereo a lot. They use two detached rings for two seperate mono channels (for bilingual broadcasts), so we should use one ring for mono.
The mono ring is the same size as the stereo rings, but the stereo icon is wider of course..

I guess reusing the shuffle icon would lead to some confusion. We'd better come up with a new icon.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: TexasRockbox on May 28, 2010, 09:42:40 AM
The two rings is similar to the "official" display of detection of the RDS signal found on some radios.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/RDS.png)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on May 28, 2010, 11:20:53 AM
The RDS logo is only superficially similar. In my opinion ZincAlloy's design is clearly not a copy or based on the RDS logo.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: audio-i on May 28, 2010, 02:43:42 PM
About the scan/preset icon (not being much of a radio user) it seems like there's not really a standard for those, most of the devices seem to use just the words. But at least a very basic idea to start with, could be something like this (the real icons would of course look much nicer):

Scan:    << >>
Preset: <<o>>  or  <<| |>> or  <<|o|>>
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 28, 2010, 03:27:13 PM
I don't know if the two rings / single ring is all that recognizable outside of whatever regions currently use it.

Wouldn't it be better to just have something like say, the word "Stereo" or "Mono"? Not everything needs to be an icon. We can take it from what we currently do in the radio screen.

Icons shouldn't really be used unless it's completely self-explanatory and if I saw it alternating between one ring and two rings as I scanned through the frequencies I probably wouldn't have any clue what it meant. If I was in an area where all the stations came in stereo, and I had presets, so I never saw the mono icon, I'd have no idea at all.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Ezraghast on May 28, 2010, 10:46:00 PM
ZincAlloy's icons are very nice. I think using the cabbie 'shuffle' icon for scan and the 'stop' icon for presets, with a number embedded would tie in..

Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: AlexP on May 29, 2010, 01:06:44 PM
I don't know if the two rings / single ring is all that recognizable outside of whatever regions currently use it.

Wouldn't it be better to just have something like say, the word "Stereo" or "Mono"? Not everything needs to be an icon. We can take it from what we currently do in the radio screen.

I can only speak for myself, but I would say it is quite well known in the UK at least - I recognised it anyway :)

However, if it isn't universal then yes, maybe something explicit would be better.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 29, 2010, 03:13:04 PM
I've never seen it before in my life. I don't know what that says about its universality, since I haven't watched much cable TV within the past few years.

Especially a single ring would mean nothing to me if I didn't have the dual rings to contrast it with. I personally would really prefer something more explicit.

The problem is, for me, that without introduction to what that icon means or good context (I could figure it out looking at both side by side because that immediately let me know both icons existed) a circle just has nothing to do with audio channels to me.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Vague Rant on May 29, 2010, 04:04:05 PM
I'll throw in that I, an Australian, have never before seen the one/two rings icons either.

How would people feel about the sound channel graphics used on DVDs and such, which depict mono ((http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/1_0_channels_(mono)_label.svg/20px-1_0_channels_(mono)_label.svg.png)), stereo ((http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/2_0_channels_(stereo)_label.svg/20px-2_0_channels_(stereo)_label.svg.png)), way up to 9.2 channels ((http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/9_2_channels_surround_sound.svg/20px-9_2_channels_surround_sound.svg.png))? Examples taken from here (bonus, they're released under the GFDL):

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Multi-channel_sound

The only real issue with them I see (besides not knowing how deeply they've penetrated; does everybody know them?) is that they're kind of designed to represent many-channel sound and so just using them for mono/stereo may be a bit of a waste of real estate.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 29, 2010, 04:25:55 PM
One option is to just have an icon for stereo that fades for mono (so that you see the faded version when you don't have stereo) so it appears more of a yes/no status than switching between two different things - that way you aren't trying to figure out what the "mono" icon means when you don't have stereo at all - you see instead a faded stereo icon which provides context by being faded relative to the other icons.

The trick then, of course, is coming up with an icon that's clearly "stereo" but at least you don't need a contrasting mono icon (which to me, at least, seems it could be more difficult).
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Vague Rant on May 29, 2010, 04:34:41 PM
That's a workable idea as long as you're considering at the very least greyscale screens, but impossible or at least highly undesirable on monochrome screens.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 29, 2010, 04:37:23 PM
The "signal present" icon as presented also won't work on the mono screens (as a note - does anyone else think it looks an awful lot like the Firefox RSS icon?).

One option for the signal present icon is to always show the dot at the bottom, and show the bars when there's signal. Stereo can work a similar way, possibly. Come up with a base image that you can add to for the presence of stereo. Or of course, text is still an option.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Vague Rant on May 29, 2010, 05:00:49 PM
(as a note - does anyone else think it looks an awful lot like the Firefox RSS icon?).

Definitely, that was my first thought; I didn't know whether to think it was for DAPs with digital radio or something, just not something I associate with an analogue radio signal.

As for a degradable (i.e. works on monochrome) icon, I agree with your idea for bars dropping off when there's no signal, something like (http://i48.tinypic.com/tzigw.png) (MS Paint, not meant to be taken seriously) could easily be modified to look good in colour but be representative on all devices.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: TexasRockbox on May 29, 2010, 11:23:50 PM
The RDS logo is only superficially similar. In my opinion ZincAlloy's design is clearly not a copy or based on the RDS logo.

No implication of copying was intended, it is just being noted the similarity (superficial or not) between the two might be confusing.  If RDS detection is displayed with the sort of infinity, sideways eight, two rings (whatever) and stereo is displayed with two rings that would be (in my view) too much similarity representing the respective detection.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on May 30, 2010, 03:52:32 PM
One option is to just have an icon for stereo that fades for mono (so that you see the faded version when you don't have stereo) so it appears more of a yes/no status than switching between two different things - that way you aren't trying to figure out what the "mono" icon means when you don't have stereo at all - you see instead a faded stereo icon which provides context by being faded relative to the other icons.

Three dots, arranged horizontally collinear, outer two "lit" while center "dim" for stereo - center "lit" while outer two dim for mono.
 
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 30, 2010, 04:37:48 PM
That's a very space saving way to do it, but again doesn't translate well to mono screens because  the dimmed images won't be there. It does have the idea of a context-establishing dimmed image, though, which I like over all compared to two completely separate images.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on May 30, 2010, 05:19:25 PM
On mono screens make the dot "hollow" for unlit.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Vague Rant on May 30, 2010, 05:44:34 PM
How well understood is that imagery? I agree with Llorean that the dim/hollow image helps to make it somewhat clearer; perhaps that could be combined with the mono/stereo symbols I described above; have the channel box visible at all times, and light up each dot as necessary. This even allows for having no channels lit when there's no signal.

EDIT: e.g.:
(http://i50.tinypic.com/b3x106.png)

Either the top or bottom rows depending on which conveys the information more clearly; from left to right (though I feel their strength is in this hopefully already being obvious) no channels (when radio is untuned), one channel (mono), two channels (stereo).
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on May 30, 2010, 06:07:45 PM
Is that not pretty much what I suggested, VagueRant, except with the "addition" of an unneeded box.  (Unneeded since there will never be the extra dimension for channel placement?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Vague Rant on May 30, 2010, 06:18:45 PM
Indeed, hence my suggestion that the idea be "combined" with more identifiable imagery rather than "replaced" or some other verb which would suggest I was disagreeing with you.

The subject at hand is whether some dots sitting side by side clearly represent the concept of mono and stereo sound; as far as I know there's no established standard to that effect, so it needs to be strongly indicative of its meaning innately. For that reason I lean toward either imagery like speakers, with sound waves travelling either one direction or two, or well-known symbols for sound channels such as the box. If there's a well-known symbolic icon for mono/stereo then I'd support the use of that.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on May 30, 2010, 06:20:39 PM
or well-known symbols for sound channels such as the box.

I was unaware of said symbol.  ;)
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Ezraghast on May 30, 2010, 06:41:14 PM
Icons shouldn't really be used unless it's completely self-explanatory and if I saw it alternating between one ring and two rings as I scanned through the frequencies I probably wouldn't have any clue what it meant.

I don't really get that. Icons represent a thing, they don't necessarily describe it. Is the standard 'play' icon obvious to someone who has never seen it before?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: soap on May 30, 2010, 06:43:25 PM
Icons shouldn't really be used unless it's completely self-explanatory and if I saw it alternating between one ring and two rings as I scanned through the frequencies I probably wouldn't have any clue what it meant.

I don't really get that. Icons represent a thing, they don't necessarily describe it. Is the standard 'play' icon obvious to someone who has never seen it before?
Today?  Likely not except for its cultural momentum.
In the context of a tape deck?  Likely many / most caught on quickly.

But that's really the point.  The play triangle did catch on, I believe in part, due to its (I can't think of the right word) its connection to our spatial cognition.

Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: ZincAlloy on May 30, 2010, 06:58:08 PM
How well understood is that imagery? I agree with Llorean that the dim/hollow image helps to make it somewhat clearer; perhaps that could be combined with the mono/stereo symbols I described above; have the channel box visible at all times, and light up each dot as necessary. This even allows for having no channels lit when there's no signal.

EDIT: e.g.:
(http://i50.tinypic.com/b3x106.png)

Either the top or bottom rows depending on which conveys the information more clearly; from left to right (though I feel their strength is in this hopefully already being obvious) no channels (when radio is untuned), one channel (mono), two channels (stereo).

I considered using these, but thought they wouldn't look good when styled like the other icons. And they show a speaker arrangement. That's cofusing. I also think that the circles are far more common. I've seen them in TV guides, on records, car radios and digital audio workstations.
Maybe we should add a greyed out ring to the mono icon to make things clearer.

As for the reception icons: An antenna icon would need to be quite large to look good in cabbie. The two other common icons that indicate reception are a number of ascending bars and the one that looks similar to the rss icon. I think the bars would look too similar to the volume icon. Furthermore I associate the other one with airwaves. It's meaning should be pretty clear on a radio screen. And it's simple. I still think it's the best icon for that job.
 
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 30, 2010, 07:05:22 PM
The difference between the "play" icon and the "stereo/mono" icon is that it if you've read the manual to discover the play/pause button, you will quickly understand what the play icon means because it will change states with the music.

Meanwhile, the stereo/mono icon changes no in reaction to direct user input, but often alongside signal quality. It can in fact show up for a station that is supposed to be in stereo because the signal is too poor and the device has chosen to use mono instead. Because of this there's not necessarily an immediately obvious way to tell what it represents.

The play/pause icon presents feedback for user input, while the stereo/mono icon is, generally, a representation of the status of the device or the signal, so at least some attempt should be made to make it communicate without context or with limited context, where play/pause will always have the context of user input alongside its change of state.

While I've seen the boxes above, I don't think we need the whole box (not having nearly as many channels, especially given FM radio) so the top line idea may be fine.


As to the circles being "far more common," I wouldn't say they are. In my experience, I've never seen those icons before in my life, while the box with dots is on a wide variety of electronics, DVD cases, and plenty of other stuff. So it may be more common where you are, but that's not necessarily true universally at all.

And again, a single circle without context is very, very meaningless. In the case that someone's only picking up mono, the icon just isn't going to be helpful. I still haven't seen a convincing reason why it needs to be an icon in the first place, honestly.

We could always use a stylized speaker for mono and pair of speakers for stereo, of course. Same concept as the circles, but with actual meaningful symbols.




I don't see how ascending bars would look at all similar to the volume icon (which is a single solid, rather than separated bars). An option would be to mirror the proposed icon though, so that at least the curve isn't in the same direction as the RSS icon.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Ezraghast on May 30, 2010, 07:24:06 PM
I recognize the circles straight away. In any case, once they are described as representing 'stereo/mono' signal in the manual, then that is what they become. They're graceful I think.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 30, 2010, 07:27:24 PM
Not everyone will have read that section of the manual. Especially given that the screen is supposed to be communicative, we should try to avoid making it necessary to use the manual to interpret. We could easily pick custom icons for anything, and use strange terms for options rather than ones that clearly tell what it means but there's a benefit to trying to minimize the requirement of the manual.

Graceful should be sought, but only if it doesn't interfere with usefulness - we should at least try to come up with an alternative that isn't likely to have a significant population asking "what's all this then?"
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Ezraghast on May 30, 2010, 07:55:57 PM
...we should try to avoid making it necessary to use the manual to interpret. We could easily pick custom icons for anything, and use strange terms for options rather than ones that clearly tell what it means but there's a benefit to trying to minimize the requirement of the manual.

Lots of posts i read tell me to use the manual or read a sticky. Consistency would help
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on May 30, 2010, 08:03:41 PM
We could always use a stylized speaker for mono and pair of speakers for stereo, of course. Same concept as the circles, but with actual meaningful symbols.

Personally I recognize the circles as a stereo indicator (but maybe that is more common to Europeans than Americans?) but the use of speakers should be more obvious to everyone.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 30, 2010, 08:18:25 PM
Lots of posts i read tell me to use the manual or read a sticky. Consistency would help

Yes, if you can't figure something out read the manual. How is this inconsistent at all with trying to make things simple enough to not need the manual?

Basically, things should be easy to figure out where possible. If necessity requires a degree of complexity that can't be intuitive, or if there's no good intuitive or self-explanatory solution, then the user should reference the manual.

The manual should only be required in places where it's the best solution - if it's possible for a screen that's supposed to present information to do so in a way that doesn't require a reference that is the ideal. The reference should only be the second option.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: TexasRockbox on May 31, 2010, 01:26:59 AM
I've seen miniaturized stereo headphones used as an indicator of stereo in portable radios while in mono there is nothing displayed in the position.

For example, a modification of this:
(http://rlv.zcache.com/headphones_icon_card-p137089341857111743tdn0_210.jpg)

It's simple, could be used in players with monochrome displays and shouldn't take too many pixels.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: [Saint] on May 31, 2010, 01:53:01 AM
Hey guys,

Firstly, sorry I haven't had the time to work on this anywhere near as much as I expected.

Secondly, regarding the Mono and Stereo indication:

Maybe it seems a little too obvious, but does it need icons for everything?

Why not simply use the text Mono/Stereo? To me that seems to be the most sensible thing to do in this case. I think an icon should only be displayed in cases where it will be immediately apparent to the user what the icon represents.

Multifont could be used to make the text unobtrusive (5-6-7px or so), and help to keep the themes visually similar for monochrome/black & white/colour targets.

The benefit of using a text string is that Mono and Stereo already exist in the .lang files so they could be translated to the users chosen language using the %Sx|<lang string>| tag.
Then there would be no "What the heck is that?" at all...  ;)

[St.]

PS: For what it's worth, the "rings" style mono/stereo icons are completely foreign to me here in NZ...
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on May 31, 2010, 04:06:18 AM
Why not simply use the text Mono/Stereo?
How useful is that for non-English speakers?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 31, 2010, 04:07:59 AM
As he mentioned they're in the lang files, so they'll be in whatever the UI language is as long as you use the WPS localization feature.

So the answer to "how useful is that for non-English speakers" would be "exactly as useful as the rest of Rockbox" I guess.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on May 31, 2010, 04:39:01 AM
What is the actual point of displaying the stereo/mono at all? it doesnt really give any useful information. So because of that I tihnk it would be cleaner to use icons (which are more universal anyway).

I like the idea of the headset a few posts up.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: [Saint] on May 31, 2010, 07:46:51 AM
What is the actual point of displaying the stereo/mono at all? it doesn't really give any useful information.

How useful is that for non-English speakers?

I think perhaps there was some form of misunderstanding? The information it gives is surely just as useful as an icon for the same purpose if not more so due to the fact that it has the ability to be translated, and as such is universal.

I didn't literally mean displaying the text "Stereo/Mono" as that would serve absolutely no purpose at all, but instead I meant displaying the word "Stereo" for stereo, and "Mono" for mono.
To me, that makes more sense than an icon, as this discussion seems to have proved that there indeed is not a universal symbol that can be used to represent either mode.

I personally don't think that anything is going to be as clear as text. It requires no extra bitmaps, there is no need for target specific implementation, it will (probably, depending on the font used) take up less screen estate, the strings for Mono and Stereo are already present in the .lang files, and it can be easily translated into the users chosen language using:

Code: [Select]
%?ts<%Sx|Stereo||%Sx|Mono|>How simple is that?

I also have to say that I'm not a fan of the "headset icon" idea from a few posts back either, to me, if I saw that I would probably assume:

"Oh, what's this icon? It must mean I have my headphones plugged in...Well that's irrelevant, of course I do it's a DAP and I'm listening to FM radio which requires the headphones be plugged in to achieve a sufficient signal"


[St.]
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: mc2739 on May 31, 2010, 08:36:06 AM
The problem I see with using Stereo/Mono as translatable text is that you have no way of knowing how much screen space will be needed to display the string.  If the translated string is not the same width as the English string there will either be too much space allocated or not enough space allocated.  The latter condition will cause the text to be clipped or scrolled, neither of which would look proper for a status indicator.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: yapper on May 31, 2010, 12:03:39 PM
The volume indicator could be modifed to represent two channels, based on the current volume indicator but with a mirrored version behind the original for stereo, and the regular version for mono.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 31, 2010, 12:37:36 PM
Or we could just insist that the peak meter finally be split so that you can have a pair of peak meters for stereo, and a single one for mono (if we can even do peak meter on Radio, I don't even know).
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on May 31, 2010, 06:20:03 PM
*insist*?
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on May 31, 2010, 09:35:02 PM
That was more or less my point - nothing has to be done but everyone's pulling in a lot of different directions.

The first, most obvious step would be to take the existing radio screen and just upgrade what's already on it to Cabbie-looking versions. Don't change anything.

Then, step 2 can be "argue about how everything works." There's a job to finish up already, we should probably take what we've already got and just have something based on the existing screen for now, then people can argue about what sort of icons look best later.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: pixelma on June 01, 2010, 12:53:38 AM
I don't want to sound too negative but I think converting this way is also not easy because if you don't have all needed icons you'll lose info on the way, or would need to stuff it into some textual info for the time being.

Seeing as it helps me to understand the idea, breaking it apart into a step by step list and typing it out helps here...

Maybe the conversion could happen this way:


As for the peakmeter idea: you can use them in the radio screen now but you won't see them move in an software codec target radio screen - and they'll show both channels currently, although someone could notice if both bars move exactly the same in mono. I also think that it would look very weird if the station has bad reception and mono/stereo changes (someone would probably switch to another or will set "force mono" but even though this would end the icon discussion, I don't think that's a nice solution).
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: JdGordon on June 01, 2010, 01:28:33 AM
I think the icons are better even if it is just to give the same look and feel as the wps.
Title: Re: ONGOING DEFAULT THEME CONTEST!!!
Post by: Llorean on June 01, 2010, 01:35:46 AM
I don't see how "look and feel" trumps usefulness.

The goal should be to get something that works first.