Rockbox Technical Forums

Support and General Use => Recording => Topic started by: Davide-NYC on July 27, 2006, 03:23:45 PM

Title: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: Davide-NYC on July 27, 2006, 03:23:45 PM
I am using an iRiver iHP-140 and the H3xx joystick remote. (thanks to Mmmm)

I just made two 10 second test recordings from the line-in jack with the Volume at 0db and the gain crancked up to +48db. Nothing at all was plugged into the line in.
My two recording sound (and look) pretty much identical. Audible ticking. Yuck.

I then repeated the test without the remote plugged in.
Tick reduction on and tick reduction off.
Of course both of these are fine. Nothing but the noisefloor.

So my question is, what exactly does the tick reduction function do if anything?
I can't hear or see any meaningful difference in a recorded WAV.
Title: Re: Does the LCD-Remote "Reduce Ticking" function do anything? Anything at all?
Post by: lenny on July 27, 2006, 04:27:11 PM
It's my understanding that the tick reduction was made for playback, not recording. I know from experience it significantly (not entirely) reduces the "tickage" for playback, but I have never heard anybody even mention it in regards to recording before.
Title: Re: Does the LCD-Remote "Reduce Ticking" function do anything? Anything at all?
Post by: Mmmm on July 27, 2006, 06:39:12 PM
Yep, reduce ticking option is only for playback...you might like to look at this thread about the recording ticking http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=4573.0 (http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=4573.0) Not that it will help though! ;)
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: Davide-NYC on July 28, 2006, 01:33:28 PM
[THREAD TITLE CHANGED TO FEATURE REQUEST INSTEAD OF QUERY]

Having confirmed that the LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking function only affects playback I would like to humbly request that a developer (or developers) attempt to implement the same function during recording.

Is this even possible? I know that I couldn't ask for anything more with my RockRiver H1xx, but if it can be had lets try to have it!  :)

No ticking during line-in would make this the best DAP/DAR even better.

Crushing!

[EDIT] I have created a feature request on the tacker: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/5732
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: lenny on July 28, 2006, 02:16:51 PM
sounds great, but if it didn't remove all ticking, than I would continue to not use the remote for important recordings. I know that for playback, ticking is stll there even with the "no ticking." I don't know if it's because all the no ticking potential hasn't been utilized or because it's just something that we'll have to deal with.

Other than the lack of stealthiness, not using the remote works just fine. however if possible this is a great idea!
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: Mmmm on July 28, 2006, 04:47:32 PM
I reckon the only way to totally eliminate the ticking is to switch off the lcd display. I suppose this must be possible....but then you wouldnt be able to have it switch on again or you'd ruin your recording....maybe a button to switch it on/off. You would then lose the advantage of the clip light though...hmmmm
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: Davide-NYC on July 28, 2006, 05:12:40 PM
*IF* the only way to solve this is to turn off the remote's LCD then it's not worth pursuing.

(better to just not use the remote while recording anything softer than a live rock band)

But if there is some way to solve this (partially or completely) without shutting off the remote LCD then it would be a great feature.

I do not think it would be necessary to change anything in the interface... the reduce ticking feature would simply affect input as well as output.

Just my thoughts....
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: Llorean on July 28, 2006, 05:14:19 PM
I wonder if you could have an option "Remote LCD does not update while recording".
Then you'd get clicks in the pre-record, but once you activate recording the only data sent to the remote could be flashing the cliplight. I would imagine that you could reduce the clicks down to minimal or possibly even none with that. You might get them when the light flashes, and maybe when it turns back off, but ideally you'll get to the point where clipping isn't happening.

At least, possibly.
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: Mmmm on July 28, 2006, 06:58:20 PM
Well, here's an interesting build.... while in the recording screen press the vol+ button on the remote and the remote stops updating, press it again and it starts. As Llorean said the backlight still causes a blip as does the hard drive! (only for h100 remote im afraid davide. :P)

disableremote.zip (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/martin.scarratt/Rockbox/disableremote.zip)

I'm not really sure if this is useful...  :-\
It's fun for a few seconds though! :D
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: Llorean on July 28, 2006, 07:03:52 PM
Is the hard drive blip always there, or only when the remote was plugged in?

Did you remove updating the recording screen, or all remote LCD updates? (When the HD accesses, the Remote LCD gets a flicker of the virtual HD LED, something that doesn't go to the main LCD).
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: Mmmm on July 29, 2006, 04:58:04 AM
Quote from: Llorean on July 28, 2006, 07:03:52 PM
Is the hard drive blip always there, or only when the remote was plugged in?

I hadn't noticed it before but it is always there! Although listening to a recording at max volume made with a gain of 40 (very high) I can just hear it so it is quite minor. The buffers fills about every 3 minutes and you get about 10 seconds of constant interference while it is writing to the hard drive. Not good :-\ (but better than the original firmare as the buffer in the original fills after 30 secs!!!!)

Quote
Did you remove updating the recording screen, or all remote LCD updates? (When the HD accesses, the Remote LCD gets a flicker of the virtual HD LED, something that doesn't go to the main LCD).
I have removed updating of the recording screen and the status bar in the recording screen (when you hit the button) which is everything. While in the recording screen with remote off, you get identical interference to when the remote is unplugged but you can still use the remote buttons.
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: Mmmm on July 29, 2006, 06:16:16 AM
I've updated it so you can use it on the h300 remotes (use the -10 button to turn off the display) Also a nice splash screen to remind you what's going on...

Is this a useful feature or a load of old rubbish? disableremote.zip (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/martin.scarratt/Rockbox/disableremote.zip)
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: Llorean on July 29, 2006, 06:18:17 AM
Next question: Are you recording from a Mic, or some other analog source (like simply running a line from something else's output to your iRiver)?

I'm just curious if this interference is going to affect everyone, or just certain cases?

Edit: And I think it's probably a useful feature, since minimizing interference on recordings is a good thing.
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: Mmmm on July 29, 2006, 06:22:00 AM
Quote from: Llorean on July 29, 2006, 06:18:17 AM
Next question: Are you recording from a Mic, or some other analog source (like simply running a line from something else's output to your iRiver)?

I'm just curious if this interference is going to affect everyone, or just certain cases?

I'm recording from line without anything plugged in (to get zero input) so it should affect everyone. (but I bet noone will ever hear it!)

Quote
Edit: And I think it's probably a useful feature, since minimizing interference on recordings is a good thing.
hmmm I suppose it's ok as a temporary measure but it is not really ideal.. better than nothing though I suppose.
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: Davide-NYC on July 29, 2006, 09:58:53 AM
This ticking business is just an inherent hardware flaw.   :(
Shutting off the remote LCD is a cludge.

Maybe a single line in the Rockbox iRiver manual mentioning the ticking could be the sad end of this.
-- Critical recording (line-in) should be done without an LCD remote plugged into the main unit as this can introduce 'artifacts' into the audio. --

I have decided that I can live with the ticking. It's rare that I absolutely have to use the remote and I never use that much gain anyway, so the ticking should be inaudible.
It'll bother me sure. I will imagine that I can hear the ticking (even when I can't) and I'll probably eventually lose my mind. But it won't kill me.  :D
Promise to visit me in the asylum!
 :P


Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: robert_w on July 29, 2006, 11:11:13 AM
It's a pity!  :(
I have spent over a month on looking for a recording equipment, analyzed Marantz, Tascam, Fostex models, microtrack, pdaudio and finally I have come here. It looked realy nice. I was going to buy a denecke ad20 and ihp120d as a sound recorder but now I am far and far away from this concept. The second alternative - a minidisc recorder is a 'blind way' for me. It is realy the time to start  playing with memory card recorder (and spend much more money)...

Goodluck Iriver Users!
Robert
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: robert_w on July 29, 2006, 11:15:44 AM
I have forgotten to add that ROCKBOX is a very good idea and probably other functions  work perfect. I understand that HW modifications are out of sight of this project  (yet? ;)

Enjoy!
Robert
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: AGI on July 29, 2006, 03:53:33 PM
robert,

I'm using the 120 for taping both as a stand alone unit and with an Edirol UA5 as a preamp & a/d connected to the optical in. I'm more than happy with it.

afaik none of the recorders you mentioned has a remote, so what is your concern with the h120?

the h120 is a wonderful little machine, just don't use the remote when recording.

Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: Davide-NYC on July 29, 2006, 04:21:22 PM
Quote
I was going to buy a denecke ad20 and ihp120d as a sound recorder but now I am far and far away from this concept.

You are making false assumptions. Read on...

The denecke ad20 has an optical spidf digital out.
The LCD remote causes no ticking whatsoever during digital recording. None.

I would also remind everyone that the ticking is generally totally inaudible except when cranking the gain WAY UP. You'd hear it if you where trying to record cockroaches screwing or some other such low DB source material through the line input and didn't have an external micpre.

iRiver H1xx plus Rockbox plud external mic-pre/ADC/battery-box plus good mics is the best remote recording (stealth) rig on the market for my money.

Basically, the iRiver is not a pro or even semi-pro recording device without an external mic-pre/ADC, but with a good pre it does a great job.
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: jlo on July 29, 2006, 04:27:01 PM
I also use a h140 with optical input coming from Edirol UA5 (modified as standalone) and B&K4006. I'm very happy to record mostly classical music. I just conservatively set up the recording level and it stays so for the 2 hours of recording : no need for the remote and so no ticking risk.
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: robert_w on July 30, 2006, 04:16:00 AM
Thanks Colleagues for your clarification!:)
I thougth ticking occurs always. I am convinced to Iriver now :)

Have a nice day!
Robert
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: Mmmm on July 30, 2006, 08:27:27 AM
OK, I've had one for (llorean) and one against(davide) for the lcd off button on the remote.

Just to point out what this would mean:


The alternative is remote on and low constant interference or no remote plugged in at all and no remote buttons or clip light or stealth setting up or anything else.

Hmm I think I just convinced myself on this one. You gain remote buttons with no interference with this feature and use of the remote before and after the recording but you lose nothing. So therefore it must be good right?

Anyone else got any opinions?
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: Davide-NYC on July 30, 2006, 05:12:11 PM
You have just convinced me as well.

Point: If you're clipping anyways what a little blip in the audio? You're clipping!

Davide-NYC
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: Llorean on July 30, 2006, 05:25:21 PM
That was my thought on the clipping issue as well.

I think the real key here is picking the right button / interface for this. Would be better as an option that has to be enabled first, like A-B repeat for playback, and only then does the button function, so new users don't accidentally lock the screen and confuse themselves?
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesiton)
Post by: Mmmm on July 31, 2006, 08:58:25 AM
OK, It's in....download a bleeding edge and give it a go.... :)
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: whatboutbob on July 31, 2006, 11:17:55 AM
Hmm...interesting work-around.  I quit using the remote in situations where I need more than about 20dB gain from the iriver because of that damn tick.

I'm not sure that I'll make use of this functionality though.  I'm too much of a control freak to fly blind on levels.

...perhaps if remote lcd updates were limited to monitor only peak levels?  So you would still know where you're peaking (not just when you're clipping)...but get minimal ticking.  Of course I've no idea if this is possible. :)

Hrmm...but the max peak hold time is only 1 min...so maybe that won't work.  If it were maybe 5 mins then maybe it would.  Theoretically you then just get a quick tick at the loudest point of a recording, when you're least likely to hear it...but still have some idea how close to clipping you are...
Title: Re: [feature request] LCD-Remote Reduce Ticking *DURING RECORDING* (was a quesit
Post by: Davide-NYC on September 08, 2006, 04:48:05 PM
I'm closing this thread since the problem has been solved by Mmmm.