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Rockbox General => Rockbox General Discussion => Topic started by: Wrathernaut on February 24, 2008, 04:58:04 PM

Title: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Wrathernaut on February 24, 2008, 04:58:04 PM
Firstly, great appreciation to all those who make Rockbox possible, I'd still be using my old Rio Karma if it weren't for this project... which brings up my question:

What player runs Rockbox perfectly?
By perfectly, I mean that everything is as responsive as a good "Stock" player (Karma is my measuring stick here).
#1 You can skip to the next song after hearing the first couple seconds of a song several times before any delay is noticed.
#2 Power-up is just as fast or faster than the factory firmware.
#3 Battery life is just as long or longer than with factory firmware.
#4 Easily playing/browsing music by artist, genre, album, etc... should feel like the purpose of the player, rather than browsing files on a computer.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Febs on February 24, 2008, 05:08:24 PM
Iriver h100 series.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Llorean on February 24, 2008, 05:12:20 PM
I'd say the iRiver H100/H300, iAudio X5 and M5, and Gigabeat F players all meet this requirement. As well, if you don't mind MP3-only playback (within the full playback system) all the Archos players also meet these requirements.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Mad Cow on February 25, 2008, 11:31:09 AM
I'll have to agree with Llorean here, although I've only used the gigabeat out of all those players. The gigabeat port is very stable and mature now, it boots incredibly quickly and the CPU is the fastest out of all the rockbox targets. For non-reording targets I would say the gigabeat is the best, for recording I would say H3xx.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Llorean on February 25, 2008, 11:37:37 AM
I'd say h100 trumps the h300 for recording. Digital options for one. And I think I was told the screen takes less work to update. As well, if I recall correctly, it shows better battery life when both have the same capacity battery.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: LambdaCalculus on February 25, 2008, 11:41:07 AM
I agree that the H100 is the better choice for recording. Having digital in/out makes quite a difference.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Mad Cow on February 25, 2008, 03:56:14 PM
Sorry i wasn't clear, I meant out of all the DAPs that can record.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Llorean on February 25, 2008, 04:04:54 PM
I was comparing the H300 to the H100 which most certainly can record and in more ways than the H300.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: AlexP on February 25, 2008, 04:18:57 PM
The H100 is the recording gold standard.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Wrathernaut on February 26, 2008, 01:44:57 AM
I'm not interested in recording, and although the features of Rockbox on the Gigabeat F series is outstanding, the slight lag time in switching songs coupled with the non-tactile buttons really hurts the experience.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: sammage on February 26, 2008, 01:54:02 AM
Another vote for H100 series...would still be using my H120, but had to go to an F40 for more capacity.  (damned hard to find an H140 for cheap)
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Llorean on February 26, 2008, 02:17:05 AM
There's no more lag on the Gigabeat than any other disk-based player when switching songs. When buffered, there should be none. When unbuffered, a slight lag for the first song because of disk spinup, then almost none as long as the disk is spinning.

Flash based players of course don't suffer from waiting for a disk to spin.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: freeway986 on March 11, 2008, 11:32:28 AM
I'm selling my iPod to my wife, and in the market for a new player.  I used Rockbox on my iPod and didn't like the slow interface or short battery life, but definitely put up with it in order to have FLAC and OGG support.  If I must, I'll just buy a new, bigger iPod.  I looked through the options listed above, but none are particularly big (or available, for that matter).

Any recommendations for someone looking for an improvement on the iPod port and a giant hard drive?
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: psycho_maniac on March 11, 2008, 11:36:22 AM
Buy an F40 and then go hunt down a Ata 80gig for it. It will be amazing
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: freeway986 on March 11, 2008, 12:47:06 PM
Forgive my cluelessness.  By the sounds of it I could stick my own hard drive in there, yes?  If so, it sounds bloody perfect.

Does the drive have to be smaller than 80GB?  I currently have this drive which I could use:

http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=576184

If I could use this drive, I would be on cloud nine.  Fantastic!

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Chronon on March 11, 2008, 12:51:44 PM
That drive will not fit into the case.  You need a 1.8" drive, not a 2.5" one, if you expect to be able to mount it inside of the case.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: AlexP on March 11, 2008, 02:35:11 PM
Have a look at www.rockbox.org/wiki/HardDriveReplacement to see which players take which drives.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: XavierGr on March 11, 2008, 02:45:10 PM
As others have said among the Software Codec Targets H100 is the best and most complete for various reasons. (well IMHO)

1) Implements all and more features that the original firmware.
2) It is among the most stable targets and the most mature.
3) Quite good battery life and of course better than the OF.
4) Can be flashed and remove the OF entirely for better boot up times.
5) Best recording DAP out there.

That's 5 reasons on top of my head, probably there are more.

On 2nd place I would choose H300.
Unfortunately H300 comes way back comparing to H100 because:
1) We don't have USB OTG yet.
2) The target isn't flashable like H100.
3) Doesn't have optical in/out.
On the other hand it has a colour display and more buttons

3rd place for me could be iAudio targets and/or Gigabeat F.

Sadly the most popular PortaPlayer based targets, come last because of closed Hardware documentation.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Job Van Dam on March 11, 2008, 02:56:58 PM
Another thing that might help the lag is defragmenting the disk. Make that puppy nice and contigious...
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: GodEater on March 12, 2008, 03:54:05 AM
No - you can't use that drive.

Firstly, it's a 2.5" drive, which means the only Rockbox targets it would even fit inside are the Archos models - but it's also using a SATA interface - which we have no support for at all.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: soap on March 12, 2008, 06:45:59 AM
That is a 2.5" HDD, outside the old Archos players, all Rockbox targets (and most all HDD based DAPs) use 1.8" HDDs.  (Well, except those targets using 1" microdrives or flash memory.)

That drive you linked is also SATA.  I believe all Rockbox targets use PATA of one connector format or another.  

Check out the wiki article on HDD replacement:
http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/HardDriveReplacement
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Scuzzo on March 15, 2008, 01:41:14 PM
im looking into getting a player with a bit more space now i have a 4gb flash player,  i really dig the whole rockbox application so i wish to us it to maximum
i see there is a bit of an a agreement that the Iriver h100 and h300 series are perhaps the gold standard for performance for RB.  

how would the iRiver h10 fair, are there any others who would be considered a very good option.  what issues has the iRver h10 failing to make it a good purchase for the RB platform.  just looking to gain some much needed insight on which player to look in go purchase in the future.

thanks for the fourm,

Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: soap on March 15, 2008, 11:52:57 PM
The iRiver H10 has as much in common with the iRiver H100 / H300 as the iPods do.
In fact, the iRiver H10 is an iPod mini with colour screen by another name.


The iAudio X5 / M5 is very closely related to the iRiver H100 / H300 series.

Personally, I would consider the H10 the worst Rockbox target.  It has all the downsides of the PortalPlayer targets, and a horrible slider "button".
The only upside I see is that an H10 5 or 6GB player can be easily upgraded with a CF card replacing the microdrive.  That, and colour screen can deliver more information than monochrome screens of the same resolution.

Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: pixelma on March 16, 2008, 06:46:39 AM
The only upside I see is that an H10 5 or 6GB player can be easily upgraded with a CF card replacing the microdrive.
Which might turn out to be not even true. The microdrive used in the small H10 has a so-called "F-Flex connector" (see HardDriveReplacement wiki (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/HardDriveReplacement#1_Drive_Comparison)) - in opposite to the Ipod Mini's microdrive which has a CF type connector. I talked to someone and he said it could be possible that this F-Flex connector is made of adapters internally but he didn't take his H10 apart yet, and I couldn't find board scans that answer this question when quickly searching a bit. At least it needs some investigation...
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Chronon on March 17, 2008, 01:19:20 PM
I think you are correct, pixelma.  This page (Seagate Tech. ST660211FX (https://shop.bellmicro.com/exec/partInfo/part_detail.tsb?prcpart=SGNST660211FX&categoryid=59)) refers to it as a 1" removable drive with an IDE interface.  This suggests that there's no embedded adapter in the F-Flex connector.

It seems you would have to get an IDE-CF adapter to use a CF card in the H10.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: soap on March 17, 2008, 07:47:26 PM
Grr, sorry for the misinformation, and thanks for the diligence of pixelma.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: acb5649 on March 19, 2008, 06:40:24 PM
I vote for the H10 in the fact that it gets good battery life. ;D Soap is inncorect as the ipod mini is the worst target as it is a greyscale and not much resolution. ;)

And I prefer the "slider" than the wheel as it is easier to manuver. 8-)

And I believe that the H10 20gb is the one that can be upgraded with a CF card.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: AlexP on March 20, 2008, 04:19:22 AM
Many targets can be changed to use a CF card with the use of on adaptor, but there are currently a few problems with that.

Soap is not wrong, and neither are you, as this is all opinions.  In my opinion, the H10 is very much one of the worst targets.  The battery life is less than the OF, whereas many Rockbox targets get MORE battery life than the OF, so in those terms the H10 is definitely, factually, not a good choice if battery life matters to you.  I hate the slider thing on the H10.  As I use my DAP (Digital Audio Player) to play music, the colour or resolution of the screen doesn't bother me much (although all else being equal, of course I would prefer a nice colour screen).
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: TheNewMinistry on March 20, 2008, 12:35:59 PM
Soap is not wrong, and neither are you, as this is all opinions.  In my opinion, the H10 is very much one of the worst targets.  The battery life is less than the OF, whereas many Rockbox targets get MORE battery life than the OF, so in those terms the H10 is definitely, factually, not a good choice if battery life matters to you.  I hate the slider thing on the H10.  As I use my DAP (Digital Audio Player) to play music, the colour or resolution of the screen doesn't bother me much (although all else being equal, of course I would prefer a nice colour screen).

H10 20gb gets the same battery life as the OF (around 11 hours), so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Scuzzo on March 20, 2008, 02:10:08 PM
welp, i have sounded in on this a few times and i really dig rockbox, and i wanted a good solid mod-able player hdd.  i could not find the h120 any where and i wanted color screen, so i threw the on a Soviet Ipod,  I will suffer the battery life issues but i really like the retro-coldwar style of it. may mod it with some USSR graphics on inskin.. any how.. thanks for the advise on player choice...   not near as spiffy as the new players out but the sound should be really strong with it.. we will see
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Chronon on March 20, 2008, 02:40:17 PM
I had never heard of the H3xx referred to that way.  I was not under the impression that it suffered from poor battery life.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: soap on March 20, 2008, 02:45:47 PM
I had never heard of the H3xx referred to that way.  I was not under the impression that it suffered from poor battery life.
The H300 does not suffer battery issues.  Rockbox beats stock.

H10 20gb gets the same battery life as the OF (around 11 hours), so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Since nobody has taken the time to update the wiki - we have no objective numbers. http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IriverRuntime

Hint Hint

welp, i have sounded in on this a few times and i really dig rockbox, and i wanted a good solid mod-able player hdd.  i could not find the h120 any where and i wanted color screen, so i threw the on a Soviet Ipod,  I will suffer the battery life issues but i really like the retro-coldwar style of it. may mod it with some USSR graphics on inskin.. any how.. thanks for the advise on player choice...   not near as spiffy as the new players out but the sound should be really strong with it.. we will see

Would you please state that again in a legible form?
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Scuzzo on March 20, 2008, 03:38:33 PM
i will try..

the h320 is has been called a soviet ipod on a few reviews i have read.. i guess its cause of the clunky button interface and the no frills looks of it.  after reading reviews and recommendations for the DAP that is best suited to be rockboxed, i decided to purchase one bout 65 bucks.  i like the fact that you can replace the hard drive and the battery. and the retro look,  of what i have read the sound quality is very good.   as far as battery life, there is some concern, iriver stats states around 14hrs but i hear of folks getting shy of 6hrs in a lot of reviews.  perhaps the newest firm ware has addressed this. i dont know..  and then i just prattled on about perhaps modding it with an inskin with some  USSR graphics.. blah blah..  i tend to ramble.  

sorry if my previous post was a bit confusing..
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: XavierGr on March 20, 2008, 04:59:09 PM
Rant mode on:
Strange, I've never heard the H300 being called a Soviet iPod!

I can't really find any resemblance between them. In most aspects H300 was far better than the equivalent iPod of the time (save perhaps the form factor), so I wouldn't even try to compare them.

Sadly, Apple is known for its wondrous advertising and marketing habits. iRiver completely lost the game, and iPod outsold the H300. That's maybe the reason why the former company completely retracted from the big storage DAP section, and focused completely in flash or low storage HD based players.
Rant mode off

Also the OF had a battery runtime of 14-16 hours (and it was realistic not like iPod claims), if I remember correctly. Nowadays Rockbox increased that to 20 hours. So yeah, there is definitely no problem battery wise, with the H300.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: soap on March 20, 2008, 06:47:45 PM
Also the OF had a battery runtime of 14-16 hours (and it was realistic not like iPod claims)
If we're ranting - I should add that Apple claims 20, and I got 22 on my 5th gen.
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Llorean on March 20, 2008, 06:50:14 PM
And for reference I've gotten battery runtimes both below and above the claimed runtime from two identical "new" players. Since batteries are lithium based, a lot of it surely depends on warehouse and shelf time.

Needless to say, manufacturer estimates never really matter, especially since they don't describe what you'll get in Rockbox, so let's stick to the "Rockbox runtime" based on recent battery benches. :)
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: XavierGr on March 20, 2008, 09:02:04 PM
If we're ranting - I should add that Apple claims 20, and I got 22 on my 5th gen.

True, though if I am not mistaken the H300 competed with the 4th Generation iPod and iPod Photo (12 and 15 hours respectively), not the 5th generation players which had a pleasant improvement in the battery department.

But yeah, as Llorean said, it matters what you get in Rockbox and not in the OF that (hopefully) no one uses. :)
Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Scuzzo on March 20, 2008, 10:20:23 PM

hmm, looks like the soviet ipod remark was taken way wrong,
i think it was called that because it was a real piece of utility equipment, ie no glam foo foo touches, just buttons and no glitter, it was desgined to perform a task with out giving the user style points and form factor gee wiz points.  its a  real black box..  it was not to say the soviet ipod is just an inferior player to the real ipod or any thing..   i never liked ipods and perhaps never will, personal choice that's all.  im going to Rockbox the h320 for sure. I hope the battery life will be decent, i have not checked on the battery test of the h320.

 i have heard many good things about the h320 so when i call it a soviet ipod im not trying to slight in any way.  just hope that single  platter 40gb hard drives drop to a lower price point.. or that come out with a new more compact lower height replacment drive with more space...  

long live rock!!   ..box

Title: Re: What is the "Flagship" player for Rockbox?
Post by: Chronon on March 21, 2008, 04:50:33 PM
I didn't take it as insulting, really.  I was a little surprised at the many pages that refer to that target in that way, though.  Particularly, as it's so popular here I would have expected to have heard it before.  I think a lot of the protestation upthread was at the suggestion that the H3xx suffers from poor battery life.