Rockbox Technical Forums

Rockbox General => Announcements => Topic started by: GodEater on September 10, 2007, 05:09:19 AM

Title: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on September 10, 2007, 05:09:19 AM
This is a call for submissions from all you talented web designed folk out there for a new design for the front page at rockbox.org.

Things to bear in mind :

1) We reserve the right to reject any work at all, for any reason we spend 30 seconds coming up with. Or even no reason at all.

2) Submitting a rendered view of the page is not acceptable as an entry, we want the actual working code.  If you're the creative type, and can't do the web coding - try and team up with someone who can. Then you can put something together in Photoshop (or The GIMP!), and let your coding buddy turn it into something that works as HTML/CSS.  

3) Rockbox has a significant number of users who are either totally blind, or partially sighted. Make sure your submission is accessbile to these people too. Proper use of ALT tags and the like.

4) Above all your submission should be easy to maintain if we come up with some other stuff we want to put on the front page at some point in the future.

We also reserve the right to change these rules if we feel we have to :)

We don't want a complete free for all - we want something that is in keeping with the current design - so a similar colour palette, and we need a certain number of key things to be included on the page.

A) We'd like to keep the SVN submissions table, and the other dynamic content, but aren't sure about the best way to display this. So this needs to stay on the front page - but try something innovative with it. Surprise us.

B) A lot of people arriving at the front page of Rockbox.org seem to feel it should be a portal to more specific information, and not contain actual up to date information directly, for instance we think the list of supported models can probably be moved elsewhere into the site, since a lot of people either seem to miss it currently, or somehow think it's out of date. We *do* want a link to it though.

C) The "News" items change very slowly currently - we'd like it to reflect items from the MajorChanges wiki page, and perhaps some other specific items when we choose to include them (e.g. DevCon announcements).

D) Obviously we want the Rockbox Logo (none of the ones from the Logo competition please - none of those were ever liked well enough by everyone to replace the current logo - so stick to the official one please).

E) We still want the navigation bar at the side. If you think you can make it more accessible, then please do so.

F) Ideally, all layout on the page should be done using proper CSS layouts rather than the current nested tables design.

G) We need to keep all the sponsors logos - so don't throw them away.

H) We want to keep an area on the page which can show people what Rockbox is capable of looking like. Currently the idea we've been throwing around is to have this as a short-list of "Best of Rockbox themes". The actual image displayed will be randomly selected from this list whenever the page is re-loaded.

Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on September 11, 2007, 06:48:05 PM
i really didnt want to post this because its not www.rockbox.org main page related because i figured id see posts in this topic but here it goes. Are there anybody working on this?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Yotto on September 11, 2007, 07:00:46 PM
I am considering it, but need inspiration and time.  So far, I am lacking both.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: axlgreasetires on September 11, 2007, 08:06:38 PM
Wow i haven't done html coding in years i doubt that i could so much as create a table let alone reference the subversion etc.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: mnhnhyouh on September 11, 2007, 08:55:12 PM
I really like the idea of a rotating themes section, though I never visit the front page, just the latest build page to see whats going on and the forum page....

h
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Yotto on September 11, 2007, 10:11:40 PM
Is there any aversion to installing blogging software on the site, such as Wordpress or Movable Type? It requires php and mysql, and one database.  Assuming "Yes", I'll start playing with a mockup on my personal webspace that could be transferred over when (if) it suffices as a frontpage replacement.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on September 11, 2007, 11:29:22 PM
Is there any reason for such software to be installed?

It seems somewhat overkill to install it for a mere front page redesign, so it seems like something like that should be backed up with what actual benefits it would offer that aren't addressed already.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Yotto on September 12, 2007, 12:38:24 AM
One of the stated goals of the front page was:

Quote
4) Above all your submission should be easy to maintain if we come up with some other stuff we want to put on the front page at some point in the future.


The ease to maintain a (well-made) Wordpress theme needs seen to be believed. Also,

Quote
C) The "News" items change very slowly currently - we'd like it to reflect items from the MajorChanges wiki page, and perhaps some other specific items when we choose to include them (e.g. DevCon announcements).


Sounds like a blog to me.

Another reason to install it, and I am in no way trying to be confrontational here, is to have whatever theme I design as the front page.  I don't have the time to completely design and maintain a front page from scratch, but a wordpress theme would not only be (comparatively) easy to design, but it could, once written, be maintained by whoever currently does the news, as there would be no coding involved in daily/weekly updates.

If it's not an option, or if the chance of a front page based on it is low, then I won't bother with a mock-up. If it is, then I will.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on September 12, 2007, 01:29:38 AM
Just saying that I don't think Wordpress would really benefit for a single page. A short PHP script could easily parse a line by line (Date) - (News item) text file for inclusion in the front page if avoiding coding is important, for example.

Just saying that while I'm not sure if it's an option or not, it sounds like a rather heavy duty solution to a single-page problem.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bluebrother on September 12, 2007, 02:01:10 AM
Using Wordpress will also put more load to the server admins because of their frequent updates / security holes ;) Maybe a different software would be better suited? But I agree with Llorean that all that's needed could be done with a simple script.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: mannequin on September 13, 2007, 06:43:38 PM
the Subversion activity descriptions were really helpful, any reason they are gone now?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Febs on September 13, 2007, 07:50:55 PM
They're not gone.  They're right here:  http://www.rockbox.org/recent.shtml
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: tdtooke on September 14, 2007, 05:50:25 AM
How do I get to the old 6 months back on SVN activity.  At least I think it was 6 months?  That was a really helpful feature for me for working with patches when I hadn't been keeping up with the changes.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: pixelma on September 14, 2007, 05:57:59 AM
There were 2 other links - "since 2.5" and "since August 1st, 2006". The latter is reachable through http://www.rockbox.org/since20060801.html and I think the links will be put back soon.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bascule on September 14, 2007, 08:58:25 AM
http://www.rockbox.org/since-4weeks.html
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: pixelma on September 14, 2007, 09:03:49 AM
Or just refresh the frontpage in your browser and find the links below the svn table. :P
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bascule on September 14, 2007, 09:06:51 AM
Well, obviously the links are there now  :P

Now that the front page has been updated

But I'm sure they weren't until just now...   ;)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Mr Brownstone on September 22, 2007, 05:09:25 AM
I currently Do website management and design for a company so I will have a go at redesigning it for you if you want :)

I also got a idea of a  slideshow  which can display different models that rockbox works which I think would look cool and catch peoples attention more. what you think?

edit:made this quickly,  this is just a small uncomplete example

Code: [Select]






 



included the idea to a main banner...
Code: [Select]





Rockbox Logo
 


taken a screenshot of what I done in this 20 minute session today...
http://duckyshack.co.uk/u/2209/f58292024.jpg
Am I on the right lines here?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Mr Brownstone on September 22, 2007, 06:44:59 AM
sorry double post
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: petur on October 02, 2007, 03:09:43 AM
well I hate animations, but I like the idea how all models are shown next to each other next to the logo...
OTOH, we don't want to put many graphics on the front page to keep the bandwidth usage down.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: soap on October 05, 2007, 04:20:05 AM

OTOH, we don't want to put many graphics on the front page to keep the bandwidth usage down.

What if we put out a call for all the sexy sexy Rockbox users (men as well as women) to pose for sexy sexy photos with their players?
Could we justify that bandwidth?

Please?

Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bluebrother on October 05, 2007, 06:55:10 AM
What if we put out a call for all the sexy sexy Rockbox users (men as well as women) to pose for sexy sexy photos with their players?

Hehe -- like "since I have Rockbox on my player I'm that much sexier"? ;)

Funny idea but I'm not sure if that would be something appropriate for the front page ...
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Mr Brownstone on October 06, 2007, 09:18:02 AM
sorry been away with alot of work recently havent had much chance to update what I done.

update - Haven't included any animation, only the scroll with all the players. Redesigned the layout of the news and included a main blarge section on the page for writing aload of stuff about Rockbox, which was one of the requirements :) looks really good so far, well in my opinion.

Dunno what to do with the bottom part atm but will think about it tonight. and also post a image of it so far.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: RaeNye on October 12, 2007, 10:49:59 AM
I didn't see any reference to RBUtil on the main page.

I imagine a 1st time visitor that has been told "Rockbox rocks, try it" arriving to the site. He sees that his DAP model is supported, and then wants to install RB easily, without all the bootloader...svn-build...fonts...themes...voice hassle. RBUtil does exactly this, hence should be very visible.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on October 12, 2007, 12:11:34 PM
So he should look for the installation instructions in the manual and read about RBUtil there.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: RaeNye on October 15, 2007, 03:14:03 PM
Sorry, but IMHO one should not hear about RBUtil only after reaching page 7 or 8 of the manual.
Personally, I wish it would be the first link under the Downloads section on the sidebar.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on October 15, 2007, 03:32:10 PM
Why exactly should RBUtil be the first thing they see instead of the Manual?

Both files need to be downloaded.

In one situation

A) User starts downloading RBUtil, waits for it to finish, finds out they should read the manual, continues.
B) User downloads RBUtil, never sees the manual, asks for support, gets pointed to the manual
C) User downloads manual, finds out he needs rbutil, starts downloading it, and continues reading the manual while it downloads.

I like C better, since it involves the user downloading files he needs to download anyway, but getting to have something to do while downloading RBUtil, the build, the fonts, or whatnot, and because that something to do means he actually knows how to use Rockbox when he's done.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: hotwire on October 19, 2007, 08:34:11 PM
My only present complaint, and thus request of the front page is that under the wiki updates table is that it really should have a link to http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/MoreRecentChanges

rockbox.org/recent.shtml really should too actually.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: yapper on October 19, 2007, 10:51:36 PM
If the purpose of the front page is to guide new users through the preferred route of reading the manual first, before installing (to eliminate lots of support requests related to items adequately described in the documentation), shouldn't the links (to the forums, current build, extras, etc) be removed from the site side bar (or suppress the side bar on the front page)?

At the moment it's just too tempting to download, then hit the forums. I know - I did!

I'm not saying scrap the side bar (site-wide), but maybe remove the temptation from the front page.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Angyman on November 06, 2007, 07:04:49 PM
Hmm, generally i like the idea and i really would give this a shot but some things i really must now before i am trying to start:

I really would like to know if PHP or Flash or Javascript usage is allowed or not. In this case I would really like to be able to use scriptaculous and prototype...

Are Screenshots for decision finding welcome??? As far as i understood its also a design question and i wont start making the code before the design has any chance...

Is this process bounded to any timelines??

And yes the RButil discussion in here is very interesting because i think lots of users are scared of installing rockbox because the webpage indeed doesnt inform about how easy it is at the end to switch to rockbox.  What is the task of the frontpage???

Do you want to inform only professionals (Subversion/Tracker/mailing list)... or is there also the will to make it more understoodable for people who have never been in touch with all this programming, build, install, flash, GCC Library, Wiki, Dap ... ... ... stuff ;-)

Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on November 06, 2007, 07:07:28 PM
I don't know about technical aspects, but I imagine it would be a great idea to do a mockup first - it would be awful to spend ages coding it to find out that those with the say hate it :)

There are no timelines that I am aware of.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: safetydan on November 06, 2007, 07:09:54 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that the Rockbox page must be accessible to screen-reading software. We have a lot blind users and making the page unusable for them would be bad. I know you can make Flash accessible for blind users, but it's probably easier just to avoid it. Similar issues with the shiny JavaScript libraries like Prototype and Scriptaculous.

If you can make it shiny and accessible then you might be on to something.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on November 06, 2007, 07:13:46 PM
Another note: Some of us navigate the page on cellphones and PDAs to check SVN status, get to the IRC logs, or take a look at the build server logs among other things. While the current pages aren't ideal for this, they're fairly lightweight and work (at least for me).

I do think there's a benefit to keeping the pages as lightweight as possible, when possible.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Angyman on November 06, 2007, 07:23:06 PM
Are we talkin about a redesign of the frontpage or of everything...  Or what dou you mean if you say frontpage??? sorry if i misunderstood something. For PDAs and cellphones there could be easily adressed a specialiced frontpage...
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: safetydan on November 06, 2007, 07:25:10 PM
A well designed site should just fallback gracefully regardless of the capabilities of the client. So there should be no need for a special page just for PDAs, etc.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Angyman on November 06, 2007, 07:28:40 PM
Not always... Sometimes Pictures help the user to understand whats going on in this crazy world ;-) (Sorry i stop talking now)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on November 06, 2007, 07:29:11 PM
It shouldn't be to hard to get the user agent, and present modified versions of the page, at least.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 24, 2008, 03:26:33 AM
Is there still a need for redesigning or it's over?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on January 24, 2008, 06:24:37 AM
We never got any submissions, but we're still open for suggestions.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 24, 2008, 06:27:22 AM
Good, I'll be glad to try.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on January 24, 2008, 08:09:08 AM
Can't wait to see your suggestions ;)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 24, 2008, 02:32:08 PM
:-)

What color palette should I use, the current one [blueish] or I thought maybe black and yellow because of the cabbie2 becoming the new default theme, or maybe the goal should be to make something that looks good?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: terrence1019 on January 24, 2008, 04:34:48 PM
The rockbox website should be Novice-friendly. That is to say, if someone wants to code, there should be a nice big button that leads him to a page that contains a lot of easy-to-use info on how to start porting. It should also be more competitive, with Badges used as incentive for porting.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 24, 2008, 04:46:40 PM
As I understood from reading this tread:

less images + friendly layout = less bandwidth & satisfied users that can find their way around

Thats the point but I'd like to know what colors I can use for the start and should the page be 100% width or more modern, centered 780px width.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on January 24, 2008, 06:42:05 PM
I really like the colors of the site right now.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: cool_walking_ on January 24, 2008, 07:11:16 PM
should the page be 100% width or more modern, centered 780px width.
Personally I hate fixed-width pages. When your browser window is too small, you get a horizontal scroll bar, and when it's too big, you have all this wasted space.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 24, 2008, 08:33:53 PM
Well, I started the opposite from what others sad but I guess it will develop to something anyone could like.

One: http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/index.php
Two: http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/index2.php
The .zip: http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/rocksite.zip - in case that someone be willing to join the process.

@cool_walking_: Will work on that tomorrow i guess.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on January 24, 2008, 08:36:36 PM
No offense intended to the creator, but I feel both of those look really, really bad. It looks like a blog, not a project. And it just looks very... like it's a piece of paper, displayed on a screen.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: crzyboyster on January 24, 2008, 09:28:53 PM
If my opinion matters, I think that the current rockbox.org page is perfect for an open source project like rockbox. It displays recent wiki edits, svn changes and major changes as well as important information in a pleasing, professional way.  

Compared to the current page, I do agree with you when comparing those two pages to the current page.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: soap on January 24, 2008, 09:56:15 PM
/me doesn't mind the look of the two sample pages.

Does think, though, that any redesign should be aware of the fact many wiki pages are a mile1.609344 KM wide.



Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 24, 2008, 10:39:09 PM
Now that I look at this - it is remind me of blog layout.

So basically it should be:


Any suggestions, drawing maybe?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bascule on January 25, 2008, 04:53:23 AM

Personally I hate fixed-width pages...

Absolutely. Unless there's a really good reason, all web pages should just fit the browser window. I know things have changed with the ridiculous amount of web scripting, but that's what html was designed to do.

I'm not too concerned about the layout, although simple is always good in my book. I also really quite liked the idea of it complementing the now-default Cabbie theme...

In terms of content, I think it needs the following info:
What:
...open source...complete replacement firmware...started on archos players...now encompasses many models (link or list)...still in continuous development...

Why:
From the 'Why Rockbox' page

How:
...at own risk...use the manual (link or list)...contains link to RbUtil auto installer...everything you need to know!...

Current Status:
SVN, Wiki, mailing list 'most recent' as currently displayed.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: cool_walking_ on January 25, 2008, 06:08:59 AM
It's not as bad as I expected from Llorean's reply, but I still like the current page better.  I dislike having text on top (meaning in the z dimension) of a gradient - I think it's much harder to read.  I think the copyright notice down the bottom is unneeded.  I think a:visited links should have different styling to normal links.  I think the arrows on either side of the headers are confusing - I would think "What are they there for? Are they back-forward links? No, I just clicked one and nothing appeared to happen... Is it one of those crappy links that doesn't give any indication that you clicked it, not even a 'hand' mouse pointer? Nothing's happening... My precious time is wasted. I am enraged. Hulk smash. F**k you, Rockbox, I'll kill all of you!!!"

Seeing it in person I now really remember just how much I don't like fixed-width pages.

Just so you don't feel hated, I often don't know what I like, but I know what I don't like, so that's why I haven't praised anything.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: MarcGuay on January 25, 2008, 08:10:57 AM
I've always thought it would be a good idea to have a "New to Rockbox?" or "First time user?" link on the main page that would walk someone through the basics.  As it stands, the frontpage can be a bit overwhealming for new users who just want to install it and check it out.  Something like this:

New User Link -> Choose your player -> Why Rockbox page blended with the Port index for that specific player.

Or maybe something as simple as a "Website Tour" page linked from the frontpage that breaks down all the different parts of the site and what they're used for, etc, etc... Ideas, anyway....
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bascule on January 25, 2008, 08:41:21 AM

I've always thought it would be a good idea to have a "New to Rockbox?" or "First time user?" link on the main page...just want to install it and check it out.


That's kind of what I was aiming for, but we have to be very careful to remind users of the magnitude of what they are doing. It's a replacement firmware, not a 'theme' or a 'skin' or an 'application' for their precious music player.

It may even be worth promoting the simulator as the way to just 'check it out', rather than go through the grief of installing, only to find they don't like it. A very little bit like a Linux Live CD, allowing full functionality without actually changing anything on the host system.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 25, 2008, 11:46:52 AM
OK, the layout and basic color palette.
http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/index.php
http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/index2.php
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on January 27, 2008, 05:17:14 AM
I like those :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 27, 2008, 05:59:33 AM
Which one better?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on January 27, 2008, 10:37:28 AM
Compare that to the one we have now I honestly like the one we have now. Maybe if some links and stuff were on those pages I might think different. Also They basically look the same to me.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: yapper on January 27, 2008, 01:22:42 PM

It may even be worth promoting the simulator as the way to just 'check it out', rather than go through the grief of installing, only to find they don't like it. A very little bit like a Linux Live CD, allowing full functionality without actually changing anything on the host system.

I think this is an excellent idea.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 29, 2008, 01:25:47 AM

Compare that to the one we have now I honestly like the one we have now. Maybe if some links and stuff were on those pages I might think different. Also They basically look the same to me.


With links it's something like that:
http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/index.php

(Please brows it with firefox - as IE has it's issues :-(
I will fix them later).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bascule on January 29, 2008, 03:09:06 AM
Even in IE that looks OK to me as a colour scheme/layout, but it still needs some content changes.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Spanky on January 29, 2008, 04:28:54 AM
That page is super bright. The blue's on this site tone it down a bit and is pretty easy on the eyes. The links seem to be easier to see on here as well. Not sure of what would solve this or how to solve this but I think a re-design is much needed. Something to make people go "WOW".
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 29, 2008, 05:32:57 AM

Even in IE that looks OK to me as a colour scheme/layout, but it still needs some content changes.


Sure, but I'd like to start the serious work on that only when most of the people will agree on something specific. Until now it's only "I don't like this and I don't like that" - it does help, but not much. Also I can easily spend a year in redesigning and re-redesigning, maybe even re-re-redesigning... with that kind of attitude.


That page is super bright. The blue's on this site tone it down a bit and is pretty easy on the eyes. The links seem to be easier to see on here as well. Not sure of what would solve this or how to solve this but I think a re-design is much needed. Something to make people go "WOW".


"WOW" is basically good, but as I see - the WOW will make slow loading while cellphones or such accessing the site and web reader programs for people with sight disorders.




I'd really could use some suggestions. Maybe some drawings or sketches (I'm not kidding). "Fixed width is bad" - that is the only thing I'm sure of for now.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on January 29, 2008, 06:34:53 AM
I'm afraid I'm no artist or designer, but my comment would also be too bright (although I like the general layout etc.).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 29, 2008, 06:36:46 AM
The white area is too bright or the overall feel?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on January 29, 2008, 06:42:53 AM

The white area is too bright or the overall feel?


The yellow is what I find too bright.  I'm not adverse to the yellow over the blue, but perhaps with it toned down a little?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 29, 2008, 06:45:48 AM
But that that yellow is like a "trade mark" - take a look at the logo of rockbox, no?
I just wanted to mix it-up with some dark color to fit the cabbie2 palette.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on January 29, 2008, 06:48:40 AM

But that that yellow is like a "trade mark" - take a look at the logo of rockbox, no?
I just wanted to mix it-up with some dark color to fit the cabbie2 palette.


I'm aware of the colour of the logo :)  However, a small logo is one thing, but I think using it for all of the webpage is just harsh on the eyes.  Also, cabbie 2 is just another theme at the moment, even if it does become the default I don't think that means the website should mirror exactly (although clearly the same feel would be good).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 29, 2008, 06:53:06 AM
Ok, I'll take it as a note.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on January 29, 2008, 06:17:26 PM
Also, bear in mind you can get clever and make the page different based on user agent, or other criterion. For example, look at the page the forums present to those accessing it via (certain) cellphones: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?wap2

Accessibility can then be more or less tweaked based on what users come to it with.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Angyman on January 29, 2008, 07:30:08 PM
Uff i really would like to make an offer also but due my work i got no chance at the moment... Anyway, some thoughts i have and maybe are woth a discussion.

1) I would really concentrate on the front page and would especially work out more the section for newcomers on the very top and give a broader explanation about rockbox (and yes also would use there more images). Javascript would do a great job for that. I am always thinking about the people which are not so much into computer stuff and they need a much cleaner and simpler explanation about rockbox with less links to deeper pages and more images.

2) Maybe some deeper there could be a by-user configurable layout. I was thinking of portlets which can be dragged and dropped. That would be quite an easy task with the ExtJS library which can be used free if its aimed for an open source project (by the way: i love ExtJS ;-)) With portlets user could arrange the frontpage like they want it, with the stuff they are most interested in. Imagine sticking Flyspray threads your interested in on the front page.

3) I also thought about color schemes but hey... every designer out there will commit that the yellow (logo) and blue combination is perfect!

4) I wouldnt touch to much of  the current layout to avoid irritating users which are used to the current page. Changes should be made softly like small graphical round ups and functionality boosts in already given areas (e.g. only javascript in the newcomers section at the top)

5) I would make use of RSS for the things which happened most recently in SVN.

6) Theres definetly more in my mind... but i think thats enough ;-)
 
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on January 29, 2008, 07:39:14 PM
http://cia.vc/stats/project/rockbox/.rss <-- RSS feed for recent SVN activity. Unfortunatey, it's "unofficial", but it's really quite good.

I really would suggest against the use of Javascript. It won't magically make the information easier to understand, and it just makes the page harder to use for limited clients.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Angyman on January 29, 2008, 08:00:13 PM
Why isnt it public... I will bookmark this immediatly  :D

ok so the magic word is "unobstrusive javascript"...

So forget about ExtJs... but maybe the use of javascript and a fallback solution for Non-javascript users  ;)

Maybe i should have given a better example. But i really like the idea which many pages are using that you can provide more information whithout diggin to deep into a page (avoiding page reloads) An example could be: http://www.flock.com/
I really dont like this site... but you can see what i mean if you click on the items "Welcome. people n the browser" and so on...  No "page reloads" just switching contents (i think i can provide a script and noscipt solution to demonstrate what i mean for the upper-newcomer-part in the next few days)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on January 29, 2008, 08:27:05 PM
I really like that link now wih the links in it. Maybe try with the color scheme that the site already has? I also like the flock.com idea with pages not reloading the same images....unless thats javascript...is it?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Angyman on January 29, 2008, 08:35:01 PM
Yes it is javascript... but you can integrate a javascript and a non-javascript version with that. The site becomes a little bit bigger in every case (because the invisible contents are loaded always) but that doesnt harm that much i think...
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on January 29, 2008, 08:39:56 PM
Except for people with limited amounts of data transfer, for example those who might check the frontpage via their phone. Lightweight == better.

But one solution is to use PHP (or something else server side) to serve something entirely different for mobile users, in which case invisible content isn't actually making the site bigger from a user's perspective.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 29, 2008, 11:00:30 PM
I've made this yesterday but the forum was down or something like so here some less bright page :
http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/rock/rock.php

Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: terrence1019 on January 29, 2008, 11:53:48 PM

I've made this yesterday but the forum was down or something like so here some less bright page :
http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/rock/rock.php




That looks good. Simple, reflective of Rockbox, and easy to navigate.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on January 29, 2008, 11:36:52 PM
WOW I really like that.  I was wondering if you could remove the right line line on the rockbox logo so it seems to take over the whole top part. I hope you understand.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: cool_walking_ on January 29, 2008, 11:38:24 PM
That's quite nice. I like the menu a whole lot better than the previous one. One thing I don't like* is the fact that the menu items move when moused over.

EDIT: *Am not sure whether I like it or not.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on January 29, 2008, 11:44:27 PM
I agree, that new idea looks very nice. I also like the way the text box curves down at the end, but I would make it (and the quote box above it) end just before the end of the page, like the previous mockup (and the current rockbox site).

Further suggestions, which are just opinion, so everyone can feel more than welcome to add their two cents... I like his new mockup as well because of the single box of text (even though this may just have been the case for the mockup only), rather than the many that are on the current page (personal preference). What if the main page just displayed recent news (and I'm assuming sponsors)? I know there is hardly ever any recent news, but perhaps this would be a good place to say things about implementing album art, or the addition of cabbie2 as a auto-installed theme (which people should feel welcome to test, by the way!). Just stuff I see on the "major changes" page that I always think should be more openly talked about.

Of course, then there is the question of how people will browse wiki, svn and mail updates. I think it might work well to have them as separate clickable links along the bottom of the page (but before the sponsors), or perhaps an all-encompassing "recent activity" link on the side/bottom/wherever people think it would stand out (it should definitely stand out, because it would be an important button/link) that could take you to a similar page to the main page, sort of a combination of this new style and the multiple text boxes currently used to show wiki, subversion and mail.

Like I said, just throwing idea out there. What does everyone else think? The only reason I feel like one box of text is better is because I've always found the multiple boxes to be overly busy, and with one box it seems to look much sleeker. I do understand that the information I'm suggesting be moved to a separate page is essentially the bread and butter of rockbox, but people who are interested in these updates (people who check the site often) would know to click the big link that would take them to the activity page. That's my reasoning, anyway.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bzavala on January 30, 2008, 12:31:32 AM

That's quite nice. I like the menu a whole lot better than the previous one. One thing I don't like* is the fact that the menu items move when moused over.

EDIT: *Am not sure whether I like it or not.


I agree... I like the look, just don't like the menu items changing when the mouse is moving over...

oh yeah... and don't like the top right rounded corner either...

other than that it's cool... simple and not too flashy...


Ben
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: cool_walking_ on January 30, 2008, 12:45:15 AM
I agree... I like the look, just don't like the menu items changing when the mouse is moving over...
Well actually I like the bitmap on mouseover, just not the text movement.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: LinusN on January 30, 2008, 03:59:32 AM
I like the latest suggestion, but I think it's a little dark for my taste. I'd like to see brighter, "happier" colors. Also, I think the test in the top right corner ("Rockbox is an open source firmware...") should be further to the left.

Apart from that, it's really nice!
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on January 30, 2008, 06:15:28 AM
Ok, I think I remembered everything, except of the "happier" implementation as I currently want to focus on the layout. "Happyness" can be implemented through nice pictures though.

www.sanusart.com/rocksite/rock/st.php
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on January 30, 2008, 06:26:19 AM
I like it, but agree on the darkness.  Light but not bright!  I assume in the main part of the page you will still have recent activity (actually the only one I personally think is a must for the front page is SVN activity).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: shotofadds on January 30, 2008, 09:20:50 AM
I like it, except for one minor thing: in IE6, hovering over the links doesn't show the destination URL in the status bar, though it does seem to work in Firefox.

Content-wise, I think it would be good if the main part of the page were as simple as possible: a very brief description of what Rockbox is (plus link to WhyRockbox), a list of which players are supported, a big obvious "How to get Rockbox on your player" link (going to a page describing where to find the appropriate downloads/manuals) and a screenshot or "featured theme" as suggested earlier.

Underneath this section could go the news items (which could/should(?) include items from MajorChanges), and following that, some "developer" links off to a Recent Activity page, build table, etc. I'm not sure how much value those SVN/mailing list updates have to Joe Public.

I'm a big believer in "Keep It Simple, Stupid" :D
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on January 30, 2008, 10:12:03 AM
I like the new layout even more. "http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/rock/st.php" but agree to LinusN's suggestion
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on January 30, 2008, 10:25:09 AM

and following that, some "developer" links off to a Recent Activity page, build table, etc. I'm not sure how much value those SVN/mailing list updates have to Joe Public.


But there are many many changes per day that can be important to me/people that doesn't get a major changes item but that I want to know.  I realise I could bookmark another page / use the RSS feed / whatever, but to me SVN updates is a 'project status' if you will and belongs on the front page.  I do however agree that mailing list / wiki etc. could be relegated.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on January 30, 2008, 10:29:32 AM
I am probably an average joe but i still like looking at the     recent svn changes.  I dont   really care for the wiki and mailing list on the main page as i usually click those links on the side bar anyways.  I also like project news.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on January 30, 2008, 10:51:14 AM
Optimally, if it could be implemented, it could be designed so that along the top of the text box there are tab-looking buttons. They could say things like "recent news", "svn news", "wiki news", "mail", etc. Clicking those would take you to essentially the exact same page as the main page, but with those respective pieces of text taking up the full page of space. By making them into tabs they won't be ignored, and by making all the pages still look the same it wouldn't feel so much like navigating away from the main page, but simply showing another feature of it.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on February 01, 2008, 01:48:24 PM
I still think it belongs there. Also maybe a gray for the background or the same color background as the new soon to be default theme Cabbie 2.0.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: terrence1019 on February 01, 2008, 03:59:41 PM
One recommendation: just as when the volume limit exceeds 0 and the icon turns red, the battery icon should turn red when it reaches a critical point.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: terrence1019 on February 01, 2008, 04:31:34 PM

One recommendation: an appendix for terms used on the website and and explanation for them
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on February 01, 2008, 04:38:59 PM
1)  Please do not double post

2)  How do you have an appendix on a webpage?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: MarcGuay on February 01, 2008, 04:45:38 PM
Quote

One recommendation: an appendix for terms used on the website and and explanation for them


I think you're looking for the glossary.  Search el wiki.  (And your aim was a bit off with the post about the Cabbie theme, in case you didn't notice.)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: crzyboyster on February 01, 2008, 06:42:35 PM
I am loving this version : http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/rock/st.php

The only thing missing is the recent wiki, svn and mailing list activity. I think that the best idea is to just keep what the current front page has and just refine it (as to not lose anything on it right now).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: terrence1019 on February 01, 2008, 11:22:15 PM
lol yes i know  ;D can someone delete the Cabbie post remark?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: MarcGuay on February 01, 2008, 11:52:33 PM

lol yes i know  ;D can someone delete the Cabbie post remark?


You should be able to.  It's next to the "modify" button.  (Or maybe not.  Seems like it's disabled in the Accouncements forum.)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on February 02, 2008, 02:09:59 AM
Do we want the "wiki", "svn" and "mail" on the front page, or maybe we want a "news" page with all three of them in it?
I think first page of the site should concentrate on the "product" for the newcomers and not on the recent news and additions to the product. So if you're new user coming to this site - you want to know "what is this all about", "do I need it", "why would I need it" -  and not what has changed at the SVN and what problems others have. Current users who interested in additions of SVN can read it from other location like other page or RSS/XML/ATOM...

Opinions?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Mikerman on February 02, 2008, 09:02:56 AM
I think it's great to offer something for potential new users, but as a current user, I like the instant access to SVN changes on the front page.  And I think that this also is good "publicity" as to Rockbox's constant improvements, including for potential new users.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on February 02, 2008, 09:48:42 AM
SVN on the front page - it is essentially a change log for many people, and whilst it is nice to welcome new people, it should also be for existing users (and even developers!)

Edit: IMO
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: crash91 on February 21, 2008, 09:24:22 AM
If theres a coder out there, i can do graphics for you, I can do HTML and CSS, but my skills are limited and I dont know how to automatically update the svn/wiki etc. Maybe if someone helps me out with that i could make another design for the front page. (Note it will not be in php/asp/whatever else as i only know HTML and CSS).

 :P
Going to work on it now, Ill see how it turns out.

PS: Maybe i could get a newsticker that reads rasher's newly set up RSS feed for majorchanges, and possibly if he could set up others, those as well. If I do, it would most probably be restricting by having to give credit to the maker in source (I dont know Javascript/AJAX either :()
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Angyman on February 22, 2008, 05:43:30 PM
Hmm... i think a design proposal would be sufficient to the devs here so html and CSS is enough...  Dont worry about the server side things because it comes after the design...
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on March 05, 2008, 07:00:43 AM
Another attempt:
http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/R2/index.html
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on March 05, 2008, 08:57:35 AM
I liked your previous one a lot more, despite what others may have said about wanting a brighter theme. This seems more like a step back, to me.

My vote is still for your last one. Not that it matters.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Mikerman on March 05, 2008, 12:04:02 PM
I prefer columns/boxes (the newspaper approach)--makes it easier to read, rather than wide paragraphs.

Thank you for your efforts, by the way.  :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on March 05, 2008, 02:42:59 PM
I also liked the previous web page
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sanusart on March 06, 2008, 03:41:00 AM
Boxes and columns will be the elements eventually, but is the design should be darker or lighter, lets strait that out first. People here liking the darker better so  maybe we need some questions poll?
 
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sandesh on September 05, 2008, 10:33:35 PM
Hi Guys!

I did this when I was free. It is still a rough copy. Would love to hear any feedback.

http://i35.tinypic.com/k20it4.jpg
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Bagder on September 08, 2008, 01:55:43 AM
I like it. Bright and clear!
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on September 08, 2008, 03:40:33 AM
For me personally, it's too bright. too many hot colors. I like the generally cool feel of the current Rockbox pages, and specifically, the fact that they're generally not very white. Even the forums are, at most, about half white.

But that's my taste. I don't mind white pages, but I don't like the white/orange mix, for me.

Then again, with a future site, we could offer multiple styles.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: JdGordon on September 08, 2008, 05:27:20 AM
I agree with Llorean
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on September 08, 2008, 05:49:23 AM
I agree with Bagder.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: LambdaCalculus379 on September 08, 2008, 06:41:51 AM
I'm with Llorean as well. Doesn't help any that blue's one of my favorite colors. ;)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: MarcGuay on September 08, 2008, 07:23:30 AM
I like the faded section headings on the leftside column as they seem to grab the eye really well, but can't say I'm too fond of the white/yellow combo.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Zardoz on September 25, 2008, 08:57:52 PM
I agree with MargGuay
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bluebrother on September 26, 2008, 01:25:13 AM
The logo "drowns" in the yellow background. Not very nice. Also, why quotation marks in the header text? This is not a quotation.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Zardoz on September 26, 2008, 08:52:46 AM
Which quotation?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: PaperArtillery on September 26, 2008, 11:09:48 AM
Another attempt:
http://www.sanusart.com/rocksite/R2/index.html
I really like Sanusart's shot at it...I think it might be wise to have a little more comprehensive of a nav system, but otherwise it's quite nice, maybe with a slight tone-down in the brighter yellows (it's a wee bit hard to look at for too long).  Those aside, I approve.

I might take a shot at it myself here soon, but that's assuming I have the time off of work.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bluebrother on September 26, 2008, 12:13:47 PM
The one in the upper right of the picture: "Rockbox is an open source ..."

This is an explanation, not a quotation. Thus quotation marks are out of place ...
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: kratonator on September 26, 2008, 03:36:54 PM
Personally, I like the site as it is. It's very sober and easy to use. Never change a winning team. ;)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Zardoz on September 27, 2008, 03:49:43 PM
The one in the upper right of the picture: "Rockbox is an open source ..."

This is an explanation, not a quotation. Thus quotation marks are out of place ...

To me the quotation marks are just stylisitc? as in they function as a visual element and not as 'proper' punctuation or diacritics.

Quote
Personally, I like the site as it is. It's very sober and easy to use. Never change a winning team.

It's a great site, make no mistake. I still think it can be improved (I think the logo is horrendous!)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on September 27, 2008, 03:53:42 PM
I think they can be left off if they're merely stylistic, as obviously some people won't see them as such.

And some of us love that logo very, very much.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Zardoz on October 01, 2008, 01:33:02 AM
Quote from: Llorean
And some of us love that logo very, very much.

I respect that, needless to remark. 'Horrendous' is probably too strong a word. I guess I meant I don't like it and I think it could be improved. That's all.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 01, 2009, 08:29:02 AM
Hi,
After I read topic (http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=21100.45) about new rockobx install button, I attempt to do redesign of rockbox site.

Here is some results:

Front page
http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/rockbox.html
http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/rockbox2.html
Main concept was to create a page for non-rockbox user that visits page for the first time. So there are some basic links to information about rockbox ex. buyers guide. For old users/developers I put some feeds link on top.
The image with player should change and show different players that rockbox can handle.
I also borrow the install button graphic ;)

Subversion table
http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/subversion.html
This screen show last subversion changes. Table will appear after click on Subversion link.

If you like it I can prepare sub-page layout. Waiting for your suggestions.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on April 01, 2009, 08:34:28 AM
One problem I have with that one is that it throws away the list of currently supported players. Considering the number of people we already have asking "Is my player supported?" it'd be nice if the list were still always visible and very apparent on the homepage.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: BdN3504 on April 01, 2009, 08:40:26 AM
[...]attempt to do redesign of rockbox site.[...]
Looks great to me! i don't know if it's ok to depict an actual picture of a rockboxed player copyrightwise, but the design looks awesome! sorry for the plumpness of my post, i'll dig deeper and will post again if i find something critique-worthy later.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 01, 2009, 09:18:33 AM
@Llorean: I will try to place the list somewhere soon.
@BdN3504: You mean cut the players/manufacture company name? I can put them back.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Zagor on April 01, 2009, 09:25:08 AM
I attempt to do redesign of rockbox site.

Very nice work. Some feedback:

1. It's very, uhm, orange. :-) How would it look with the orange backgrounds being shades of blue instead?

2. The top white-on-gray navigation is hard to read.

3. Where do developers go?

4. I'd love to see some sub-page sketches. A new theme needs to work well with wiki and the tracker too.

BdN3504: Depicting products on a web page is perfectly legal.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: ThaCrip on April 01, 2009, 09:37:50 AM
i am not sure if this is the right place to ask but what happened to all the 'supported players' on the home page of this site?

it's currently only showing Apple stuff.

and also it says... "SVN access disabled. See news and IRC. "  instead of showing the usual bug fixes there.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on April 01, 2009, 09:44:50 AM
As it says "see news and IRC." If you don't wish to do either of those, just wait until tomorrow for further news on the issue.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: BdN3504 on April 01, 2009, 11:02:22 AM
BdN3504: Depicting products on a web page is perfectly legal.
Disregard my post concerning that matter then.
top bar:
I think it would be better to have all elements look similar. on the right hand side for example you used some kind of mirroring for the "Project news, Sub... etc." IMO either use the same effect on all elements of that bar or leave it out. the home support etc. buttons... will the one you hover over be black like home or yellow like support? i think they should all look similar, especially the elements that are not in a button now, i can hardly read them against the grey background. context wise: i don't know how you will handle the subcategories. see on the current site downloads, documentation, support etc. all have subcategories. i would like it best if they showed up below them, when pointing at 'em. here's a shitty screenshot mockup of what i mean: (http://i40.tinypic.com/29vxkix.png)

The part below that (showing the player/svn) bar is fine.

The  big white bar gives me the feeling of an organized site, should be there, but i think the glossary and screenshots item shall be left out.

At the bottom i think the announcements is a bit misleading, especially with the numbers below that item. it's a forum thread, right? i think major changes would fit better on the front page. the about box right next to it is good, but if you have the support button at the top bar i think it's redundant to put it to the bottom of the page again. The background design of that section is neat, clearly readable and all.

i think you should add "our sponsors" or something of that kind above the sponsors, because i don't think the user will understand that the shown icons represent them.

So, i hope this helps a bit. keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on April 01, 2009, 11:22:31 AM
I feel exactly the opposite about the white bar in the middle. It feels like noise to me. It's splitting navigation between two areas, and most of the information it's prominently displaying isn't particularly useful to potential users.

Target Status is mostly developer oriented information.
Feature Comparision is often outdated, and likely to stay in a very useful state. A simple feature list of Rockbox generally would be better.
Buyer's Guide is also not so useful. It's mainly useful for people already wanting to use Rockbox, rather than people wanting to find out if they can use it on their player. And price information, etc, will often fall out of date.
Screenshots might be useful.
FAQ might or might not be useful, depending on which you point to, but would be better as simply a project description, which is already covered in why choose rockbox.
Glossary is useful.

If it's going to be "user oriented" it should aim for the very most prominent stuff to be things that *new* users want/need, I think
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: BdN3504 on April 01, 2009, 11:45:43 AM
Target Status is mostly developer oriented information.
agree
Feature Comparision is often outdated, and likely to stay in a very useful state. A simple feature list of Rockbox generally would be better.
agree
Buyer's Guide is also not so useful. It's mainly useful for people already wanting to use Rockbox, rather than people wanting to find out if they can use it on their player. And price information, etc, will often fall out of date.
disagreeI think this addresses users who might have had a rockboxed player in their hand and think about getting one themselves, or who simply have heard about rockbox by friends etc. price info etc. are vague and not maintainable easily but i think it's very good, if you present new users which device they might want to look out for, since they can consider the various hardware pros and cons of the devices at a glance.
Screenshots might be useful.
eh.
FAQ might or might not be useful, depending on which you point to, but would be better as simply a project description, which is already covered in why choose rockbox.
agree
Glossary is useful.
disagree i don't think there is anything you can't understand right now if you look at the front page, not having read the glossary except for current build maybe. but that could be also addressed with some pop up when people hover over that word, or simply a link to the glossary in the word itself. should be possible to check if a word is in the glossary and then create a link, when it's shown on the front page, right? how do others feel about this?

if you include shots of the players, could you create something that will show a shot of a different random player anytime you visit the site? like this:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/a9sjfp.png)
or if you hover over the different makers, pop up that sub menu and the corresponding shot is shown. that'd supernice :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 01, 2009, 12:25:19 PM
http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/rockblue.html
This is just front page. The subpages will just have the top (grey) & bottom (black) bar and white main area for text with submenu on left. I think.

@Zagor:
1. It's very, uhm, orange. :-) How would it look with the orange backgrounds being shades of blue instead?
2. The top white-on-gray navigation is hard to read.
3. Where do developers go?
4. I'd love to see some sub-page sketches. A new theme needs to work well with wiki and the tracker too.

1. To much orange? Don't you like orange? :-) Check the new orange with blue version.
2. Now it should be better.
3. By "where" you mean forum, bugtracker, etc?
4. I will try make some mockup later.

@BdN3504:
you used some kind of mirroring for the "Project news, Sub... etc." IMO either use the same effect on all elements of that bar or leave it out. the home support etc.
done

i don't know how you will handle the subcategories. see on the current site downloads, documentation, support etc. all have subcategories
I was thinking about showing sub-menu after entering menu-category page on the left side. I will present it on subpage later.

At the bottom i think the announcements is a bit misleading, especially with the numbers below that item. it's a forum thread, right? i think major changes would fit better on the front page.
Announcements box of course can be replaced by Major changes. And the numbers are on fly switch between each announcement entry.

i think you should add "our sponsors" or something of that kind above the sponsors, because i don't think the user will understand that the shown icons represent them.
done

@Llorean and @BdN3504:
I feel exactly the opposite about the white bar in the middle. It feels like noise to me. It's splitting navigation between two areas, and most of the information it's prominently displaying
isn't particularly useful to potential users.
My idea was to show quick links to most important information for new user. I grab the links that in my opinion can be useful. They can be replaced with different links, just propose new one ;-)

if you include shots of the players, could you create something that will show a shot of a different random player anytime you visit the site? [...] or if you hover over the different makers, pop up that sub menu and the corresponding shot is shown. that'd supernice :)
Nice idea. Will try it.

PS: For the future, sorry all for my english.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on April 01, 2009, 01:12:08 PM
I *really* like this.  It would be good to have a prominent "For Developers" link (showing svn etc.) and the subpages sound good, but I'd love to see a mockup.

Keep going, it is clear you have some substantial design skills, and as for your English - a) it is fine, and b) content can be tweaked anyway :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 01, 2009, 02:10:42 PM
Subpage: http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/rockblue_page.html
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 01, 2009, 02:29:05 PM
I also like this a lot :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 01, 2009, 04:13:30 PM
http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/
All of my today work with new layout. Last one includes dev info (wiki + mailing). Tomorrow I will try to put players list somwhere.
Waiting for comments.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: j8048188 on April 01, 2009, 04:38:36 PM
looks great!
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: BdN3504 on April 01, 2009, 05:10:01 PM
looks great!
indeed.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Zardoz on April 01, 2009, 08:22:55 PM
Like the redesign ideas, although I prefer the softer 'bluer' versions of the current lot. Just to mention, the present, used, front page has a spelling error! Enthusiastic is missing its 't' ...... in the 'project news' section. By the way what does "Rockbox is now a...... part of Apple's development team!" mean exactly?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Febs on April 02, 2009, 12:37:51 AM
By the way what does "Rockbox is now a...... part of Apple's development team!" mean exactly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_fool
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 02, 2009, 02:23:38 AM
I actually like the white area in the middle. I think it's a good to split out areas for "special attention" in terms of navigation. What's in that white area can be changed - that's MUCH easier than the design itself.

Having just had a quick chat with Bagder about this, we're both of the opinion that unless anyone has some serious issues with the design itself, rather than what macku has decided to put into specific areas, we should really go ahead with this.

A web page design is not going to be 100% perfect for everyone from the get go, but unless we actually put one up and start using it, and perfecting it as we go, we might as well bin this idea since it'll never move forwards.

So my vote is go for it.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: cool_walking_ on April 02, 2009, 02:51:59 AM
I really like this one, too.  Just a few small niggles, not really about the design itself:
1. Isn't the "What is Rockbox?" section only needed on the front page?
2. The different-coloured RSS links - isn't the orange icon a standard of sorts?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on April 02, 2009, 05:36:59 AM
I actually like the white area in the middle. I think it's a good to split out areas for "special attention" in terms of navigation. What's in that white area can be changed - that's MUCH easier than the design itself.

Agree :)

A web page design is not going to be 100% perfect for everyone from the get go, but unless we actually put one up and start using it, and perfecting it as we go, we might as well bin this idea since it'll never move forwards.

So my vote is go for it.

I completely agree - the content is a different matter - we can tweak which links actually appear, but the design itself is great and I'd love to see it happen.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Febs on April 02, 2009, 06:43:17 AM
Having just had a quick chat with Bagder about this, we're both of the opinion that unless anyone has some serious issues with the design itself, rather than what macku has decided to put into specific areas, we should really go ahead with this.

A web page design is not going to be 100% perfect for everyone from the get go, but unless we actually put one up and start using it, and perfecting it as we go, we might as well bin this idea since it'll never move forwards.

So my vote is go for it.

Gets my vote as well.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: scorche on April 02, 2009, 07:14:43 AM
A web page design is not going to be 100% perfect for everyone from the get go, but unless we actually put one up and start using it, and perfecting it as we go, we might as well bin this idea since it'll never move forwards.

As a reminder, this means that the forums template, wiki template, and the themes site is going to have to be redone to match the style as well.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 02, 2009, 07:54:16 AM
Absolutely, and I'm sure macku is aware of that too.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind a gradual change over of those either. Try to get each one right before moving onto the next one - otherwise we risk swamping our designed with work :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: evilnick on April 02, 2009, 09:23:52 AM
I really like the look of the proposed redesign. It's shiny and pretty!
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 02, 2009, 09:35:28 AM
http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/index.html
Check last two ones images. What's new?
1. I added proposal submenu that will show after mouse enter menu category. I'm not sure about including it on page. But maybe?
2. The players menu. It will show player image without reloading page using slide script. The main disadvantage of this solution is that I will have to create images for all of players.

Absolutely, and I'm sure macku is aware of that too.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind a gradual change over of those either. Try to get each one right before moving onto the next one - otherwise we risk swamping our designed with work
I think when to code will be done and written good it will "fit" for wiki without too many improvements.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on April 02, 2009, 10:52:43 AM
I think the white area really draws attention to itself, and I don't like the idea of the main focus point of the page being links that say "This isn't the page you want."

Could we see either a version of the page without the menu there (just a smallish white separator) or maybe a version where a few of the links (Screenshots, Glossary maybe?) are in the yellow area, and the "What is Rockbox" is in the white area?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 02, 2009, 10:54:08 AM
Could we actually start getting some HTML / CSS for this too, so we can play around with the layouts a bit ?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: motionman95 on April 02, 2009, 12:01:09 PM
I know CSS and HTML, so I'm pretty sure I could help with that.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 02, 2009, 01:07:58 PM
http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/index.html

@Llorean: Check 9, 10 and 11 versions.
@GodEater and @motionman95: I think for now the goal is to choose the best mockup and after that start creating page code.

So, maybe let's do some vote? If there is no objection.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: j8048188 on April 02, 2009, 01:20:37 PM
One comment about
http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/top_changed.html

It would be nice to have recent svn changes.  I'm not a dev, but I check that every day.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: linuxstb on April 02, 2009, 01:23:55 PM
I haven't read all this thread, but there is a constant fight between making the site useful to people that like to visit it every day, whilst at the same time trying to make it friendly to new users.

So my proposal would be to split it.

i.e. have www.rockbox.org as a site dedicated to promoting and supporting Rockbox,  and a devs.rockbox.org site which would be more or less what the current site is.

The wiki could be similarly split - have a developer's wiki on devs.rockbox.org, and a wiki for users on www.rockbox.org.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: JdGordon on April 02, 2009, 01:40:31 PM
I dont think splitting the wiki is needed, or the site really, it just needs an extra dev.html site with recent svn logs and if possible a simple one line summary of the build table
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: perfectdrug on April 02, 2009, 01:42:25 PM
With 9 and 11 I like that you have kind of an active Supported players section. So that the new user has to click for his player, to find if it is supported or not. This prevents in my opinion misreading.
The new design looks pretty slick, keep up the good work :) !
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: linuxstb on April 02, 2009, 02:11:53 PM
I dont think splitting the wiki is needed, or the site really, it just needs an extra dev.html site with recent svn logs and if possible a simple one line summary of the build table

My suggestion is more subtle (or perhaps more radical) than that.    The problem IMO is that the current site is too big, and full of lots of information users don't need.

The idea is that www.rockbox.org should be designed around users of Rockbox - not "us" (i.e. the developers and people who regularly post in the forums).  I would go as far as saying it should be written from scratch.  The entire site could be implemented as a wiki, making it more under the control of users.

devs.rockbox.org would be more or less what the current site is, including the existing wiki content.

But it's just an idea - I've only thought about it for about 10 minutes...
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: soap on April 02, 2009, 08:00:45 PM
I think the white area really draws attention to itself, and I don't like the idea of the main focus point of the page being links that say "This isn't the page you want."
I disagree 100%. 
I did not see a white band, I saw three distinct areas with three distinct types of content.  The white bar was not the main focus in my initial impression.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bluebrother on April 03, 2009, 01:22:39 AM
devs.rockbox.org would be more or less what the current site is, including the existing wiki content.

But it's just an idea - I've only thought about it for about 10 minutes...
While I would call it dev.rockbox.org I quite like the idea.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: JdGordon on April 03, 2009, 01:32:22 AM
would or wouldnt?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: gevaerts on April 03, 2009, 04:38:25 AM
would or wouldnt?

The proposal was devs, and bluebrother proposes dev, so would :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Bagder on April 03, 2009, 04:55:57 AM
I'm a fan of the idea to make the current site user-focused while at the same time introducing a "separate" developer's site.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on April 03, 2009, 05:26:49 AM
I'm a fan of the idea to make the current site user-focused while at the same time introducing a "separate" developer's site.

Me too.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: shotofadds on April 03, 2009, 05:39:56 AM
+1 for a separate 'dev' page. It doesn't necessarily need to be a separate site, but I do think the front page should be kept user-oriented (albeit with a big, obvious Developers link).

With the current site I hardly ever check the homepage anyway since /recent.shtml gives far more info anyway.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: NicolasP on April 03, 2009, 10:45:53 AM
I'm a fan of the idea to make the current site user-focused while at the same time introducing a "separate" developer's site.

dev.rockbox.org gets my vote too. I like the proposed new design a lot by the way :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: BdN3504 on April 03, 2009, 11:10:48 AM
the white bar of this (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/top_changed.html), combined with the supported players list and the drop down menu at the top from this (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/rockbox_sansa.html). i like the bottom of this (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/no_white.html) more than the bottom of this (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/rockbox_toshiba.html) i.e. keep wiki changes and announcements in one bar.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: j8048188 on April 03, 2009, 12:36:01 PM
+1 for a separate 'dev' page. It doesn't necessarily need to be a separate site, but I do think the front page should be kept user-oriented (albeit with a big, obvious Developers link).
Ditto.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 03, 2009, 04:12:25 PM
While you gonna consider about spiting page for user-friendly and development part, I will start creating page code. My proposition is going to be used after all, right?

My comments after I read yours posts about front page:
1. Top (orange), player list.
I will use this (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/top_changed.html) top (with players list) rather than this (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/no_white.html). It's easer to implement.
Actual displayed player image can be changed with links from supported players list. I will use JavaScript slide for this.

2. White bar
Still not fully sure with version is the best. I thinking about merging this (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/no_middle.html) with that (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/rockblue.html).

3. Subpage
this version (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/rockblue_page.html)

Is any more mockup needed?  :P

PS: None Flash on page, only CSS and JS.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Chronon on April 03, 2009, 04:30:16 PM
I'm a fan of the idea to make the current site user-focused while at the same time introducing a "separate" developer's site.

dev.rockbox.org gets my vote too. I like the proposed new design a lot by the way :)

Me too, on both counts.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 09, 2009, 09:10:02 AM
Here (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html/index.html) is some work in progress. I will finish code after weekend.
Page should work with browsers like FF3, Opera 9.6, IE8 (still need some work to do with improving for IE < 8 ), Chrome 2. Example images for supported players: sandisk, olympus, toshiba. On IE there is problem with player fading animation.

It there is some problem while displaying page please PM with description and screenshot.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Hillshum on April 09, 2009, 12:26:54 PM
Example images for supported players: sandisk, olympus, toshiba.

Did you mean that they should be there or you need some or what?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 09, 2009, 01:10:16 PM
As example I mean I found and pick only this ones. The rest are just with "?" sign. And yes, they should be there.
If Mr. Someone have some basic graphic skills he can prepare image for rest of them ;).  Image dimension should be 400x250px, transparent background (png) or use orange background (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html/media/images/header_logo.png) with Rockbox inscription.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on April 10, 2009, 02:24:05 AM
A couple of quick comments - the early iPods aren't Classics, they are just 1G, 2G etc.  Also, spelling of video.

The iriver H100 and iHP100 are the same thing, iriver renamed them all to H100.

It should be consistent in the manufacturer/model - i.e. Apple Ipod but then just Cowon, under iRiver, why repeat the iriver bit etc.

However, these are all details that can be changed at a later date, I like the page itself!
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: evilnick on April 10, 2009, 08:35:43 AM
I think that these look fantastic so far. I know that you mentioned that IE < 8 had some problems, I found that using IE7 the top menu with the  different dynamic options (e.g. Download->Releases|Current Build|Extras|Themes) shows up fine but is shifted one menu to the right so cannot be clicked on.

I am really impressed though, I think that this is a great start  :D
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: yapper on April 10, 2009, 10:56:46 AM
These are very nice looking pages.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Hillshum on April 10, 2009, 12:37:44 PM
Is the delay in loading the images due to your server being slow or due to how they are loaded?

If they can be sped up (either on the rockbox servers or by changing their setup) I think it would be cooler if they would come up without clicking.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 18, 2009, 03:56:40 AM
Latest update (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html/index.html)
IE menu bug fixed. Players animation still don't work properly on all IE. But I got solution for this and for long delay between image loading. Changing players png files to jpg should work.

I also have question about download buttons. With version is better first (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/img/top0.png) or second (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/img/top1.png).
And how about top with search instead of feed links?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: yapper on April 18, 2009, 06:25:29 AM
There was a lot of discussion about download buttons in another thread recently (http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=21100.0), and the one that was chosen is shown here: http://www.rockbox.org/download/
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: gevaerts on April 18, 2009, 06:59:49 AM
I don't get the list of supported players on browsers that don't do javascript
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: schrottplatz on April 18, 2009, 07:01:21 AM
this is awesome! i would make the yellow at the top a bit brighter
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: mcuelenaere on April 18, 2009, 08:24:04 AM
I don't get the list of supported players on browsers that don't do javascript
Also, you can't view the Subversion pop-out or the announcements when no JS is available.

OTOH, in which cases do users/devs not have at least basic JavaScript support in their browsers?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: gevaerts on April 18, 2009, 08:56:21 AM
OTOH, in which cases do users/devs not have at least basic JavaScript support in their browsers?

I know that at least some users use a braille terminal with console-based webbrowsers such as lynx.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: rasher on April 18, 2009, 09:10:59 AM
In the "no javascript" case, a single text list of supported players would be fine.

And I'm nitpicking here, but I think the fade-out/in of supported players should be a bit faster.

All in all, looks really nice.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bluebrother on April 18, 2009, 10:09:03 AM
And I'm nitpicking here, but I think the fade-out/in of supported players should be a bit faster.
I don't like this fading at all. On slower machines this can be crawling and annoying. It's similar to the fading stuff sf.net does (and I really hate that).

Why can't all information be displayed in the first place instead of requiring the user to click somewhere first?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 18, 2009, 02:08:39 PM
Another update (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/)
Removed reflections from images on top bar.
Colours on players list has changed a little bit. Stylized buttons on those from download. And I was thinking about third button for download manual. Hm?

I don't get the list of supported players on browsers that don't do javascript
Link to page with supported player lists should appear now when JS is disabled.
Also links to subversion changes and announcements should work properly at least.

And I'm nitpicking here, but I think the fade-out/in of supported players should be a bit faster.
Any more faster and the fading animation will be needless ;)

PS: I know about players image don't fit to page now. And about problems with players menu for IE (sic!)...
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: rasher on April 18, 2009, 02:27:31 PM
I like the changes.

Is it possible to fit the current list of supported in the no-javascript part rather than having the link there?

What is the "Download Package" supposed to link to? I like the idea of having the manual linked prominently.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 18, 2009, 02:45:20 PM
Is it possible to fit the current list of supported in the no-javascript part rather than having the link there?
Hm. Generally yes, it is. The supported player list is generated from this data (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/media/js/rockbox.js). It is "stored" in JS file for easily adding new player. JS script generate whole list. I don't remember if there is some function that can check on server-side if browser support JS.

If so, some script (ex. php) can generate the same supported player list tags and put it inside html page. It should work almost the same but without option to change images and changing manufacture will work only when mouse is over manufacture name.
If no, another one script can just generate some text data and place it in <nonscript> tags.
Anyway this is task for server-side script.

What is the "Download Package" supposed to link to? I like the idea of having the manual linked prominently.
Download Package - download zip archive with rockbox and put it on player.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: rasher on April 18, 2009, 04:09:50 PM
If no, another one script can just generate some text data and place it in <nonscript> tags.
Anyway this is task for server-side script.
It should just be (more or less, if not just completely) hardcoded in the noscript tag - I just meant if there was room for it.

What is the "Download Package" supposed to link to? I like the idea of having the manual linked prominently.
Download Package - download zip archive with rockbox and put it on player.
We don't want this on the front page - users should be steered towards Rockbox Utility. Just switch it for a link to the manua.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: soap on April 18, 2009, 06:02:28 PM
Is it possible to detect the disablement of javascript (or some other telling sign of a "luddite"*) and use that as a determining factor on which page (old or new) is served?


*used in a loving manner.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: mcuelenaere on April 18, 2009, 08:11:49 PM
Is it possible to detect the disablement of javascript (or some other telling sign of a "luddite"*) and use that as a determining factor on which page (old or new) is served?


*used in a loving manner.

You could do something like
Code: [Select]
<noscript>
<img src="no-js-detection.php" />
</noscript>
or base yourself upon the User Agent which the browser sends to the server (there are probably other methods too).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: rasher on April 19, 2009, 06:30:23 AM
Is it possible to detect the disablement of javascript (or some other telling sign of a "luddite"*) and use that as a determining factor on which page (old or new) is served?
This is already done on the pages he's posted, and works rather well. No need to use the old page in any way.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 19, 2009, 01:11:29 PM
Update (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/index.html)
Added manual download button. Top menu is less blurry and colours are changed. Added Subversion table (click on subversion to slide it out).
Full supported player list is now displayed when JS is disabled. It looks a little bit ugly but at least it is there.

// Edited
Supported player fading animation now works on IE. Images fit to page and their size is smaller - faster loading.
Still problem with player menu on IE < 8. I will work on this tomorrow.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: schrottplatz on April 19, 2009, 03:06:39 PM
very cool like this but i think the dropdown style doesnt match to the theme
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 20, 2009, 02:58:03 AM
Nitpicking again, but you're using a picture of the Gigabeat S, not the Gigabeat X. Otherwise - loving it very much :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 20, 2009, 07:45:08 AM
Update (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/index.html)
Front: Problem with supported players list solved on IE7.
I think this is good time to choose between two proposed versions of front page.

Subpage/Wiki: Added Wiki navigation, search and jump boxes, topic actions bar and example table.

you're using a picture of the Gigabeat S, not the Gigabeat X
It may be truth. I took a quick research and found this one as S model. Feel free to found real S X and place it on this background (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/media/images/players/player_bg.png). 
It also concern to create other supported player images. ;)

In my opinion pages are finished. But there can be some errors while using different browsers.

// edit: No version on RB Utility download button.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on April 20, 2009, 08:14:29 AM
You don't want an S. You want an X.

The button should just say "Rockbox Utility" not "Rockbox Utility 1.2"

Wherever possible, the webpage should avoid having things we need to update regularly manually. Only in places where it's impossible to avoid this (for example, the list of supported players) but in places like that button, there's no real need to have the button tell what version of Rockbox utility it leads to.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on April 20, 2009, 10:53:04 AM
I think the second version of the page looks more professional. The blurb about Rockbox in the middle looks better in a skinnier column, as it's not a very large amount of text. The buttons look good next to it, as well.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on April 20, 2009, 12:33:11 PM
i Really like front page 2 although i see some pictures are missing for players. Other than that it looks really nice and i like the wiki page as well. who will be keeping the website up to date then if this becomes the new webpage?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on April 20, 2009, 12:35:57 PM
The same as now - it'll go in SVN and be updateable by committers then made live by a Swede :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: j8048188 on April 20, 2009, 12:42:42 PM
One suggestion:
when I click on the manufacturer's name, the picture stays on the last one chosen.  would it be possible to have the pic change to the first one on the new manufacturer's row?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 21, 2009, 02:40:06 AM
Front page 2 gets my vote.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: BdN3504 on April 21, 2009, 03:55:33 AM
The images of the sponsors aren't displayed when Adblock plus is enabled. On the old page they are.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 21, 2009, 05:16:41 AM
when I click on the manufacturer's name, the picture stays on the last one chosen.  would it be possible to have the pic change to the first one on the new manufacturer's row?
It is possible but I don't think this is necessary. Why do load image player that you didn't chosen yet?

The images of the sponsors aren't displayed when Adblock plus is enabled. On the old page they are.
Weird, I'm using Adblock Plus and I noticed sponsors images are not displayed on actual rockbox.org front page, but on proposed there are. I guess responsibility for this is *bad* rules in Adblock. Anyway fixed.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: BdN3504 on April 21, 2009, 06:40:20 AM
Here are some pics:
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Zagor on April 21, 2009, 07:49:06 AM
A couple of items:

1. The development items are pretty much hidden away. Perhaps we should simply move all development to a subpage and just keep a top-menu link to it.

2. Why is there a left-side menu in wiki? And why the heavy bottom blob?

3. Can we combine the css files into one? Or at least clearly describe how they are logically separated. I don't want to search for classes in three files.

4. The white-on-lightgray top menu is still too discrete. It blends in with the browser chrome and I think many people will have trouble finding it.

5. The heavliy antialiased G-clef favicon is pretty, but it's not *our* G-clef. Our clef is derived from the Rockbox logo. I'd like to keep that.

6. I'd like to shrink som of the vertical spacing. Especially the white field feels a bit too far spaced.

7. I too prefer version 2 with the columns instead of rows. But the links are positioned asymmetrically. "Feature comparison" and "FAQ" should be side by side.

[UPDATED]
8. The wiki text size is too small. Wiki is very text focused and must be easy to read.

[UPDATE2]
The font size is different in different browsers, caused by specifying font size in 'em' rather than 'px'.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 21, 2009, 11:37:18 AM
@BdN3504: Nice work. Could you try to add small black/dark grey glow to players?

@Zagor:
1. The development items are pretty much hidden away. Perhaps we should simply move all development to a subpage and just keep a top-menu link to it.
I think this task is not for me. I just created layout that include elements mentioned on first post of this topic.

2. Why is there a left-side menu in wiki? And why the heavy bottom blob?
This menu was created before top dropdown menu. I can cut it away. Todo // Edit: by blob you mean? Please make screenshot and mark it.

3. Can we combine the css files into one? Or at least clearly describe how they are logically separated. I don't want to search for classes in three files.
There will be only two css files: main and for wiki. Main have almost all rules. reset.css will join to main. rockbox2.css is only for the second font page. wiki.css will be added only to wiki pages.
Css (and also JS) files are compressed now. I have sources files with comments inside.

4. The white-on-lightgray top menu is still too discrete. It blends in with the browser chrome and I think many people will have trouble finding it.
Better proposition? Black? What then with black Rockbox logo?

5. The heavliy antialiased G-clef favicon is pretty, but it's not *our* G-clef. Our clef is derived from the Rockbox logo. I'd like to keep that.
No problem to change at all. Todo.

6. I'd like to shrink som of the vertical spacing. Especially the white field feels a bit too far spaced.
To much margin. Todo.

7. I too prefer version 2 with the columns instead of rows. But the links are positioned asymmetrically. "Feature comparison" and "FAQ" should be side by side.
Just text. Can be edited. // Edit: my mad, wrong margins here.

8. The wiki text size is too small. Wiki is very text focused and must be easy to read.
9. The font size is different in different browsers, caused by specifying font size in 'em' rather than 'px'.
Todo.

As all of you choose second version of front page, I think we have a *winner*. Thanks for comments and cooperating  ;)

// Edit:
Todo done (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/index.html)
About fonts size. I checked it ones again on different browsers. On FF, Opera, Chrome and IE8 size is the same. Mismatch occur only on IE7.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on April 21, 2009, 04:20:54 PM
Has everyone else clicked the "subversion" link at the top? It's beautiful.

Is there a need for a "Home" button when the logo at the top left could possibly be made clickable? That may not be desired, though.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: soap on April 21, 2009, 05:04:30 PM
My wife is not web-savvy, or else I would enlist her, but I don't think the link to the forums is obvious enough.

Perhaps we could ask non-Rockbox'd friends to load said page with the intention of going to the forums and see how frustrated (or not) they get?
 
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Hillshum on April 21, 2009, 06:09:20 PM
Has everyone else clicked the "subversion" link at the top? It's beautiful.

Is there a need for a "Home" button when the logo at the top left could possibly be made clickable? That may not be desired, though.

Not really an RSS feed like the icon implies though.....
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: tenzip on April 21, 2009, 07:27:18 PM
4. The white-on-lightgray top menu is still too discrete. It blends in with the browser chrome and I think many people will have trouble finding it.
Better proposition? Black? What then with black Rockbox logo?
Might I make a suggestion?

When moused over, the buttons light up in a pretty yellow color, and the selected button is black/dark gray.  Why not have the buttons yellow all the time, (except the selected one), and then just have the menu drop down when moused over?  IMO the gray color blending with the browser is not a problem, but making the buttons stand out a bit more would be good.

And having the Rockbox logo clickable for home page is a good idea.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 22, 2009, 02:28:10 AM
I don't want to speak for Zagor, but I'm assuming the "blob" he speaks of is hilighted in this screenshot - I don't see that it's necessary on any of the wiki pages.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: cool_walking_ on April 22, 2009, 03:37:55 AM
Not really an RSS feed like the icon implies though.....

Yeah, I think that's a bad idea (ab)using the RSS icons like that.  It would be nice to actually have RSS feeds for those things, though.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 22, 2009, 03:39:23 AM
Perhaps we could ask non-Rockbox'd friends to load said page with the intention of going to the forums and see how frustrated (or not) they get?
I don't want to speak for Zagor, but I'm assuming the "blob" he speaks of is hilighted in this screenshot - I don't see that it's necessary on any of the wiki pages.
Inside this *blob* (block maybe?) is Support column with Forum link. The same link is in top drop-down menu under support.
In my opinion is good to have this block on every site and have ex. quick access to last announcements. Now rockbox is not only main and wiki, but also some other pages.

// UP: RSS icon is rss link. Text is to normal page. [RSS](feed) Subversion(table with changes)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Chronon on April 22, 2009, 03:43:04 AM
I think that once a visitor enters the Wiki it should contain content specific to the wiki (i.e. maybe not the blob).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: cool_walking_ on April 22, 2009, 03:45:14 AM
// UP: RSS icon is rss link. Text is to normal page. [RSS](feed) Subversion(table with changes)

Well that's all well and good if people already know that, but to me it's quite counter-intuitive.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: soap on April 22, 2009, 03:48:38 AM
Inside this *blob* (block maybe?) is Support column with Forum link. The same link is in top drop-down menu under support.
In my opinion is good to have this block on every site and have ex. quick access to last announcements. Now rockbox is not only main and wiki, but also some other pages.

I wasn't attempting to allege that there weren't (2?) links to the forums, just that they seemed "buried" to me, and was curious if any one else found them occult to a quick glance.

// UP: RSS icon is rss link. Text is to normal page. [RSS](feed) Subversion(table with changes)

Well that's all well and good if people already know that, but to me it's quite counter-intuitive.

I, too, didn't realize the icons and text went different places.  I think I would have figured it out right quick, though, if the demo page had in fact been fully operational. ;)

Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: cool_walking_ on April 22, 2009, 04:02:34 AM
I think an icon to the left of text implies that the text and icon are considered one object.  However, if I saw something like "Project news (RSS)", I would be much more likely to consider them "separate, but related".

Part of it is that mousing over one piece would show that the other does not get highlighted/underlined, and thus is separate, whereas with the current design, I just think the image isn't highlighted because it's an image and people tend not to highlight image links on mouseover.  Maybe it would help if the RSS icon lightened when moused over (but not when the text is moused over).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Zagor on April 22, 2009, 04:31:02 AM
2. Why is there a left-side menu in wiki? And why the heavy bottom blob?

This menu was created before top dropdown menu. I can cut it away. Todo // Edit: by blob you mean? Please make screenshot and mark it.

"The blob" is the big blue field in the bottom, as GodEater said. It doesn't belong on the wiki pages.

In general, putting the same information in several places is not a good way to get it noticed. It just makes the pages more noisy and confusing. For this reason I also don't like the links in the footer. Those links are already present in the top menu.

4. The white-on-lightgray top menu is still too discrete. It blends in with the browser chrome and I think many people will have trouble finding it.

Better proposition? Black? What then with black Rockbox logo?

I can think of two variants to test:

1. Black background, as in the footer. In this case use the "complete" Rockbox logo with yellow background. This of course also requires changing all text colours. However a black header and footer makes the wiki pages (and other non-front non-colourful pages) very stark black/white.

2. Lightblue background. Allows keeping the text colour. Perhaps the footer should be blue too, then. It provides a little more colour/life to non-front pages and keeps a familiarity connection to the old design.

About fonts size. I checked it ones again on different browsers. On FF, Opera, Chrome and IE8 size is the same. Mismatch occur only on IE7.

That may be the case in Windows, but in Linux I get different font sizes in Opera and Firefox. I bet mac users get different sizes too. This is a known issue with css font sizing, solved by using pixel sizes instead. One pixel is always one pixel, on every operating system and every browser.

Most of my "complaints" are just minor quibbles and doesn't have to be fixed by you. If we fix the gray top bar and the font sizing, I think the design is good enough to implement. Then we can keep tweaking the live page instead.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: BdN3504 on April 22, 2009, 06:05:57 AM
please tell say stuff like that in the first place! i had to redo everything!
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 22, 2009, 08:52:54 AM
Update (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2)
Say good-bay to grey top with image based menu text and welcome blue with normal text.
Rss feed icons are now highlighted after mouse is over them.
Deleted menu on bottom bar.
Font sizes are in pixels.

@BdN3504: I'm most forget to mention it. Sorry and thanks for new images.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: mcuelenaere on April 22, 2009, 09:00:28 AM
Update (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2)
Say good-bay to grey top with image based menu text and welcome blue with normal text.
Rss feed icons are now highlighted after mouse is over them.
Deleted menu on bottom bar.
Font sizes are in pixels.

@BdN3504: I'm most forget to mention it. Sorry and thanks for new images.
This is a really minor nitpick, but the height of .announcements should be a bit higher so those (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) buttons are displayed fully (232px seems to work); otherwise they look cutoff at the bottom.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on April 22, 2009, 09:09:16 AM
This is really looking nice now :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 22, 2009, 09:19:00 AM
Okay, when can we put it live ? :)

(Bearing in mind I still think the wiki pages need to lose the blue bit at the bottom)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 22, 2009, 09:28:04 AM
Okay, when can we put it live ? :)
My proposition is to create temp ex. new.rockbox.org subdomain while implementing new layout with copy of current webroot folder.
btw: Who is responsible for the web page?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 22, 2009, 09:32:15 AM
/me tugs at Zagor's sleeve
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on April 22, 2009, 09:35:55 AM
The current website is in svn if you want it for content.  To make it live, do the replacement, then Zagor is the man to talk to as GodEator says :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 22, 2009, 11:35:50 AM
OK, thanks for info. I will contact him soon.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on April 22, 2009, 01:45:26 PM
Back to the topic of subversion... in the final version of the new page, the links at the bottom will be back, yes? The "last four weeks"/"twelve months"/"since 3.0"? I find I use those a lot. It might also be good to make the title in the subversion dropdown (on the top left after it rolls out) a clickable link to go to an expanded version of this list (similar to how it works now). This would be helpful since the proposed dropdown, while gorgeous, won't be leaving room to view many entries at a time. Actually, since this is the case, which behavior would be better?

1) method proposed above, similar to now: a certain number of changes are viewed in the dropdown, the title "subversion" can be clicked to go to a page of expanded subversion logs
2) a method could also be implemented for the dropdown that adds "back"/"next" buttons at the bottom, so the dropdown could display a fixed number of changes at a time, but could be navigated through easily as a subpage without having to expand any further

Hope either of those are helpful suggestions. 2 actually seems like it would be more elegant, since an extra page wouldn't be needed. If my wording was at all confusing, I can clarify better.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: j8048188 on April 22, 2009, 02:19:42 PM
when I click on the manufacturer's name, the picture stays on the last one chosen.  would it be possible to have the pic change to the first one on the new manufacturer's row?
It is possible but I don't think this is necessary. Why do load image player that you didn't chosen yet?
When you click on a manufacturer and not a player, you could load the manufacturer's logo.  I am not sure how licensing would be on this, though.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: linuxstb on April 22, 2009, 02:46:28 PM
This style of site seems to have gained momentum, but I need to say that I don't like various aspects of it - overall I think it's trying to be too clever, and we should try to keep it simple.

Firstly, the drop-down menus at the top.  The current left menu on the site (which easily fits into all Rockbox sites - the main website, the wiki, the forums and the themes site) fits nicely on most screens, and gives users a list of all the main sections of the site without needing to click.

But this is a pet-hate of mine - websites are not desktop applications, so don't need a menu bar across the top...

Secondly, the list of targets.  I find that because the "menu" across the top of the page does things when I hover, I expect the target menus to do the same.  It feels very inconsistent for those two elements to behave so differently.

Also, the terms "iPod 1G", "iPod 2G" etc have proved in the past to be the cause of confusion - people commonly read "2G" to mean "2GB".  That's why the site currently avoids those abbreviations, and use the fuller "1st gen" etc terms.  "iPod Nano 1G" is especially confusing.

It also seems that we will soon run out of space as we support more and more targets from different manufacturers (or if we give the models we do support clearer names).

I also don't like the "noscript" version of that target list - a scrollbar in the middle of a page?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should keep the existing layout - there are many good things about the proposal.  It just doesn't feel as usable as the existing site.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Zagor on April 22, 2009, 03:43:01 PM
This style of site seems to have gained momentum, but I need to say that I don't like various aspects of it - overall I think it's trying to be too clever, and we should try to keep it simple.

I agree with several of your points. But I think most of these issues can be adjusted and tested on the actual site rather than in these sketches.

My plan is to get it up and running, and then keep adjusting it. Commit early, commit often. :-)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: pixelma on April 22, 2009, 06:29:09 PM
Some of my thoughts:

Pictures:
@BdN3504: Nice work. Could you try to add small black/dark grey glow to players?
Is the origin of the pictures known? I just think that licensing should be clear before using them.
Was the idea to either show the default WPS or maybe the Rockbox boot splash on the players (BdN3504's don't)? And the OndioFM picture should also use a different display "background" colour than the Recorder ones because stock Ondios don't have a backlight at all (which is why I used a darker colour in the player's SVG for the manual and small pictures on the download pages). Backlight modded Ondios can use EL foils as backlight which is usually blueish (as shown in the commonly used Archos picture which is probably even the basis of this work), and in a newer sim and on the OndioBacklight wiki.
I see a danger that someone visiting the page the first time could think that Rockbox is only for the player he or she finds there at first, so I'd prefer if it was either cycling automatically or start with nothing

Players list:
Clickable - I would find it nicer (because quicker) if it could react on mouse over, no clicks. As linuxstb said it would also be more consistent. That also has a downside though that you probably load more data (more pictures) than you would when only clicking on certain things.
Some of the items could be combined, I think (e.g. the Iaudio "L" models probably don't need an extra picture, as they are the same as the non-L ones with a bigger battery, hence only slightly thicker).
I agree with bluebrother about the animation stuff.

Top bar menu:
Blends with browser chrome OK, things changed since yesterday.
I don't understand the bottom menu (it's redundant, as Zagor said).

Wiki:
I had the same points as already mentioned - I don't think it needs the "blob" at the bottom and could use some blue to not break too much with the main page (see my suggestion).

All in all:
The proposals look nice at first glance but to me they are a bit too busy with the four coloured zones and strong cuts between them - and all the gradients, shadows, differently looking links and menus. Of course, zones can help navigation if they are used for different things and one can quickly recognise that, otherwise they can easily make a page fall apart. I admit it's hard to find the right balance between them and don't have another suggestion at the moment see attachment.

It's a pity that the layout is "optimised" for a certain window width. Unfortunately it's a general trend (and a pet-hate of mine) but I think it really shouldn't be necessary that you already have to scroll horizontally at a window width below 980 pixels. Fixing the layout for smaller width will leave too much empty space in larger windows, so it would be really really great if it was at least a bit nicer to different resolutions... I know it's not easy to make it look good and keep it flexible but it is possible, the wikipedia front page is a good example in my eyes.

To me the 3 columns paragraph crams too much into one place, somehow leading to my impression that it is too small for the info it bears (sorry can't put it any better at the moment). Maybe 2, a little wider, columns would be enough which could also be a bit more flexible?

I also had the same thought about dropdown menus as linuxstb...

P.S. Attached are 2 quick mockups I did yesterday how I'd imagine a bit calmer: get rid of a few gradients and don't divide so hard between the zones, maybe there could be one gradient between the menu bar and the rest but that would have taken more time I just didn't want to invest for the mock-up. Also to be seen, yesterday's suggestion of mine what to do with the menu bar - change places with the orange part. You can also see that the sponsors links didn't show up for me, using Adblock Plus, after you said it was fixed (taken from the "Todo done" link). The wiki mock-up - without the "blob" and with the same colour scheme as the main page and add a small part of the orange line at the top (probably not needed with the new blue bar - I really like it better that the items are now text not graphics anymore).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: j8048188 on April 23, 2009, 12:41:22 PM
here is a site for a perfectly proportioned width every time:

it also works with IE without turning on "quirk mode"

http://matthewjamestaylor.com/blog/holy-grail-liquid-layout-no-quirks-mode

EDIT: He says that you can use his code for free, so I hope licensing will not be an issue.

EDIT 2: here are some other code examples by him:

http://matthewjamestaylor.com/blog/ultimate-3-column-holy-grail-ems.htm
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 24, 2009, 04:08:26 AM
I send all layout files to Zagor and he will start slowly implementing it.
Creating flexible layout is *really* hard and I don't have any good experience with it. But if someone want to do it contact me or better Zagor.

My idea about missing players images.
How about another "art request" topic to create them?
Here is a background (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/media/images/players/player_bg.png) and here you can check (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/front.html) missing players. Put player on background and post image inside topic. Remember to add small glow to player. And write inside topic with player image you want create (in case someone also want do it).
And Toshiba X is now S model so it is *missing* :)

PS: Like GodEater wrote:
A web page design is not going to be 100% perfect for everyone
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: BdN3504 on April 24, 2009, 04:49:30 AM
Is the origin of the pictures known? I just think that licensing should be clear before using them.
Was the idea to either show the default WPS or maybe the Rockbox boot splash on the players (BdN3504's don't)? And the OndioFM picture should also use a different display "background" colour than the Recorder ones because stock Ondios don't have a backlight at all (which is why I used a darker colour in the player's SVG for the manual and small pictures on the download pages)[...]

wrong screens for the ondio fm are used
as in this section of the manual (http://download.rockbox.org/manual/rockbox-ondiofm/rockbox-buildch4.html#x7-330004) then.

concerning the copyright, i already asked:
i don't know if it's ok to depict an actual picture of a rockboxed player copyrightwise[...]
and got this answer:
BdN3504: Depicting products on a web page is perfectly legal.
as for the different screens: i just looked at the pictures that have already been added and didn't see any consistency as to what was displayed. so i thought, i'd pick a screenshot from a random wps in the gallery, because the screens are easily accessible there and published under gpl. i tried to find screens in the manual, but i didn't come across them too easily so i went with a wps that pleased my eye from the gallery. if i think about it, it's probably best to take the default wps (meaning cabbie, not the ugly one), as that's what most people coming to the site to download rb will be seeing, when they first turn on their rockboxed device. i don't think showing the splash screen will give the users an impression of what their player actually looks after being rockboxed.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: sko on April 24, 2009, 05:44:43 AM
Hi, I've seen this thread first time now, and I'm very excited! This design looks really great!
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: kugel. on April 24, 2009, 07:31:58 AM
/me likes pixelma's mockups.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: LambdaCalculus379 on April 24, 2009, 07:49:02 AM
+1 for pixelma's mockups.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: BdN3504 on April 24, 2009, 07:57:49 AM
Please refrain from using odd formatting such as needless colours, font size changes, bold/italic/etc formatting, and special characters when they are not needed. This makes the conversation harder to follow by many people and can be quite painful on the eyes.  The ability to perform these sorts of formatting exists as it can be used sparingly help highlight information.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on April 24, 2009, 12:26:06 PM
+1 for pixelma
ipod images missing:
2g
4g
mini1g
mini2g
nano1g
photo
video
archos images missing:
jukebox player
jukebox studio
jukebox recorder
ondio sp
cowon images missing:
ALL
iriver images missing:
ALL
olympus images missing:
none (but could the m:robe have a rockbox image on the player or no? )
Gigabeat images missing:
Gigabeat X (has the wrong image....site has pic of gigabeat S not the X)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 24, 2009, 12:50:52 PM
In the spirit of showing you can't please all the people all the time - I prefer macku's layouts to pixelma's modified versions. Sorry!
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Phalangees on April 24, 2009, 01:24:13 PM
Although I really don't have any say in this at all, as an average rockbox user, I prefer macku's layout as well.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 24, 2009, 01:29:35 PM
As an "average rockbox user" you're kind of who the site redesign is being aimed at. The "developer's bit" that has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread is really the bit you don't get a say in ;)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Strife89 on April 24, 2009, 02:44:47 PM
So this page (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/front.html) is the work-in-progress redesign, then?

I say keep the Subversion list on the home page. Although I'm simply a user, I look at it daily, and I almost never update Rockbox until I see a change there that fixes something that's been bothering me, or adds a new feature that interests me. Otherwise, it's like a progress bar. :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on April 24, 2009, 04:06:27 PM
is there somewhere on the wiki this is talked about? im thinking the information i put should be on the wiki so it doesnt get lost in the forums. just wondering what everybody else thinks. thats how we came to a conclusion of the new default theme.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 24, 2009, 04:34:23 PM
No, all the discussion has been here.

The "work in progress" is now here : http://new.rockbox.org/ .

You'll note there is a subversion link at the top there.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on April 24, 2009, 04:42:34 PM
sweet. the new site will take some getting used to...just wondering since the new site seems to have a new somewhat color theme. will the forum also be getting a new color theme?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: soap on April 25, 2009, 12:00:52 PM
How do I create photos for missing targets?
Is there a procedure?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on April 25, 2009, 12:18:56 PM
How do I create photos for missing targets?
Is there a procedure?


To an extent:

http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=12607.msg149053#msg149053
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on April 25, 2009, 12:24:43 PM
Do we really want SVN commits hidden by default on the new site?  I like the idea of showing how active our project is on the front page.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: yapper on April 25, 2009, 03:51:54 PM
Do we really want SVN commits hidden by default on the new site?  I like the idea of showing how active our project is on the front page.
I agree - to me this is more important than wiki or mailing list activity.

Note: all three links in the top right of the work-in-progress page currently have 'subscribe' misspelled in the mouse-over text.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on April 25, 2009, 06:04:17 PM
yes i love LOVE the svn progress. thats the first thing i look at before i do anything on the site. although i dont mind the drop down menu i can just click that click it again to hide it and go along my way

How do I create photos for missing targets?
Is there a procedure?

hope this helps
I send all layout files to Zagor and he will start slowly implementing it.
Creating flexible layout is *really* hard and I don't have any good experience with it. But if someone want to do it contact me or better Zagor.

My idea about missing players images.
How about another "art request" topic to create them?
Here is a background (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/media/images/players/player_bg.png) and here you can check (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/front.html) missing players. Put player on background and post image inside topic. Remember to add small glow to player. And write inside topic with player image you want create (in case someone also want do it).
And Toshiba X is now S model so it is *missing* :)

PS: Like GodEater wrote:
A web page design is not going to be 100% perfect for everyone
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: robin0800 on April 26, 2009, 06:55:52 AM
Perhaps to avoid problems the text for the players should qualify version 1 only where no difference can be seen in the picture.
Alternatively perhaps a splash on top of the picture of versions supported.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: pixelma on April 28, 2009, 04:40:09 AM
In the spirit of showing you can't please all the people all the time - I prefer macku's layouts to pixelma's modified versions. Sorry!
Actually, I did not do these mockups just to hear they look better, or they don't. The reason for doing them was getting my point across and to have something to work with (and to show that I'm willing to spend time and thought too). As in e.g.: wouldn't it be better to not have such a white "band"? In my eyes it makes the page fall apart (and if I remember correctly, Llorean stated a similar concern earlier). While I agree that it's better if the site looks pleasent it's as important (in my eyes) to get information to the viewer. If the occasional visitor thinks "ah, this page looks nice but is there a wiki or an IRC channel?" (*) then I don't think it's a good page, especially for a project like this. *) Which he or she will only find when hovering over the menu bar (compared to just look at the left side menu now) - or manages to read to the bottom without getting distracted too much. Another one: is there a reason why the font is smaller in the three column and recent wiki and ml activity part - other than it wouldn't fit otherwise or needed to be even wider? Or is this a bug?

wrong screens for the ondio fm are used as in this section of the manual (http://download.rockbox.org/manual/rockbox-ondiofm/rockbox-buildch4.html#x7-330004) then.
Yes, the manual is wrong there too, for two reasons: not differentiate between the Recorders and Ondios needs less screenshot pictures in the manual source (only a few have to be doubled which show RTC or radio for e.g. the OndioSP or RecorderV1) - and until semi-recently the screenshots taken in the sim looked the same. That's not a reason to use the wrong one there, especially as you need different pictures anyways.

Creating flexible layout is *really* hard and I don't have any good experience with it. But if someone want to do it contact me or better Zagor.
Yes, unfortunately it is a dying art, because everyone uses the same display resolution and uses the browser in the same window size and forgot why HTML was invented... /me gets carried away
Maybe I'll have a try myself.

I'm trying to talk about specific things which I think could be improved and provide suggestions and reasons why I think this way. Unfortunately some of my previous questions remained unanswered...

Edit: looked at an older version first, so updated a point which became invalid now
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 28, 2009, 06:50:48 AM
Actually, I did not do these mockups just to hear they look better, or they don't. The reason for doing them was getting my point across and to have something to work with (and to show that I'm willing to spend time and thought too). As in e.g.: wouldn't it be better to not have such a white "band"?  In my eyes it makes the page fall apart (and if I remember correctly, Llorean stated a similar concern earlier).

And I *like* the white band. It does break the page up, deliberately, and in a useful way. It provides a nice visual cue for arranging information in catergories without actually having to have some generic title slapped in the middle of the page.

Quote
While I agree that it's better if the site looks pleasent it's as important (in my eyes) to get information to the viewer. If the occasional visitor thinks "ah, this page looks nice but is there a wiki or an IRC channel?" (*) then I don't think it's a good page, especially for a project like this. *)

To be honest we're ALWAYS going to get users coming to the site who can't find these things. We do now. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen posts in the forums from our seasoned members having to point out the side menu to other people. Macku's redesign is likely to prove no better and no worse in that regard, and therefore I don't think this point is worth arguing over.

Quote
or manages to read to the bottom without getting distracted too much.

I don't find it distracting. Again I just think this is a case of not being able to please everyone. I personally feel that the current front page is distracting for the average new user, as it contains too much information. Our opinions differ. Sorry.


Quote
Another one: is there a reason why the font is smaller in the three column and recent wiki and ml activity part - other than it wouldn't fit otherwise or needed to be even wider? Or is this a bug?

Presumably this is because the current use for those sections in macku's design are going to contain more text. We can alter that if we decide those sections are inappropriate.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 28, 2009, 12:38:32 PM
wouldn't it be better to not have such a white "band"? In my eyes it makes the page fall apart
I think it is opposite. White part makes visitor focus on it. While blue separates other information. And this is good if the white box causes user to easily aim to the most important things. Not exactly be those stuff I have proposed, but like I said: it's text - can be changed.

And in fact, this is front page. In my opinion it should say "where to go next", not to show all kind of information. Most of you are developers crew and I understand that is good to have "dev stuff" on front page. I'm just another Rockbox user. That is why I decided to hide table of subversion changes, and even consider to do the same with last mails and wiki updates. But if this is really important I can place table under the wiki and mailing.
Main thought about your mockups: to blue.

Yes, unfortunately it is a dying art, because everyone uses the same display resolution and uses the browser in the same window size and forgot why HTML was invented...
If I can say short story. Nearly year ago I changed my monitor from 19" (5:4 proportions, 1280x1024) to 22" (16:10, 1680x1050px). I was *really* surprised about how web page looks like. Some of them was (are?) even designed for 800x600px. Those pages fills only 1/3 space of my monitor.
What I'm trying to say is that web pages aren't designed for every type of display resolutions but for the most popular. That's way I decided to create it with static width. Here you can check (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/screenshot) how proposed page look on my monitor with fixed and flexible width. The lesser evil, I rather prefer "tight" version.

PS: @piexma: If you want to see how html and web evolve check some of this pages: 1 (http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html), 2 (http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html), 3 (http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/06/26/flexible-layouts-challenge-for-the-future/), 4 (http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/04/23/30-beautiful-real-estate-websites/), 5 (http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/04/06/design-to-sell-12-tips-to-help-your-website-convert/), 6 (http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/31/backgrounds-in-web-design-examples-and-best-practices-2/), 7 (http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/24/designing-drop-down-menus-examples-and-best-practices/)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on April 28, 2009, 12:45:35 PM
I think if we're going to go any further, we need to really decide what belongs in each box. If we're going to "focus" attention somewhere, we need to figure out what exactly is to be focused on, and display it there, so we can see how big it is, and what visual effects this actually results in.

The temporary text there could be much larger (or smaller) than what we would realistically put there otherwise.

Basically, there's no sense in defining the layout first, then the text, if the text has the power to redefine aspects of the layout. It all needs to be done at once.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: gevaerts on April 28, 2009, 01:01:28 PM
What I'm trying to say is that web pages aren't designed for every type of display resolutions but for the most popular.
This is where you're wrong. Web pages shouldn't be designed for a specific resolution *at all*
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 28, 2009, 01:17:40 PM
This is where you're wrong. Web pages shouldn't be designed for a specific resolution *at all*
I agree. What I wrote wasn't my opinion how pages should be designed, but an observation how they are. We can convincing each other, if page should have static or flexible width, but that is not a point. I just wanted to explain why I used fixed width.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: kugel. on April 28, 2009, 01:33:39 PM
Actually, I did not do these mockups just to hear they look better, or they don't. The reason for doing them was getting my point across and to have something to work with (and to show that I'm willing to spend time and thought too). As in e.g.: wouldn't it be better to not have such a white "band"?  In my eyes it makes the page fall apart (and if I remember correctly, Llorean stated a similar concern earlier).

And I *like* the white band. It does break the page up, deliberately, and in a useful way. It provides a nice visual cue for arranging information in catergories without actually having to have some generic title slapped in the middle of the page.

I agree that the white band does anything bad. For me it neither creates a huge gap, nor it takes grand focus (the only thing that gets my focus is the big question mark sign). And once there's pictures for all targets, these pictures will get the most focus and making user ask himself "How can I do that". Then he finds the manual and installation links directly to the left.
I just prefered pixelma's colors, not the fact that it got rid of the white band for a reason.

I agree too that the activity table shouldn't be disappear entirely, but it should be hugely cropped or just show a summary (to show our activeness). More infos will always be on the site dedicated to devs (if there's going to be one.

People only being interested in the changes already don't browse our current main page, but recent.shtml.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: JdGordon on April 28, 2009, 01:43:28 PM
hugely late to the party but anyway:
* I dont like that the first thing you see is the target picture... it should have the rocbox logo instead of the a target image
* under downloads, themes should be above extras
* I dont think tracker should be where it is... maybe under a development item...
* where is the svn log?

Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Hillshum on April 28, 2009, 03:35:07 PM
@JdGordon

Has everyone else clicked the "subversion" link at the top? It's beautiful.

Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: JdGordon on April 28, 2009, 03:50:08 PM
haha, holy crap!
it shouldnt be using the rss logo then...
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on April 28, 2009, 03:53:28 PM
it shouldnt be using the rss logo then...

It isn't, the RSS logo is for the RSS feed, the text link is different.  I agree it is confusing though.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on April 28, 2009, 04:18:16 PM
Do we really want SVN commits hidden by default on the new site?  I like the idea of showing how active our project is on the front page.
I agree - to me this is more important than wiki or mailing list activity.

Note: all three links in the top right of the work-in-progress page currently have 'subscribe' misspelled in the mouse-over text.

I'd also rather have the mailing list and wiki activity on a drop down and SVN always on top.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: bluebrother on April 28, 2009, 05:08:52 PM
This is where you're wrong. Web pages shouldn't be designed for a specific resolution *at all*
I agree. What I wrote wasn't my opinion how pages should be designed, but an observation how they are. We can convincing each other, if page should have static or flexible width, but that is not a point. I just wanted to explain why I used fixed width.
Well, why aren't you using a flexible layout then?

In general, I *really* disagree with this page-needs-to-be-flashy stuff. I'd rather have a less noisy but still nice page which holds all important stuff. Why is JavaScript needed to display such a page at all? Why do hidden parts need to animate when showing up? (btw, try that on a slow machine or a box with slow graphics. You'll hate it immediately!) I'm all for a nicer look, but "nice" is something quite different to "noisy".
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on April 28, 2009, 08:40:40 PM
i hate flash and java too as i used to have a slow machine and couldnt even go on my favorite sites because of the java and flash. i noticed all ads now a days are java or flash and now every site is too.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 29, 2009, 02:59:13 AM
This post seems to be getting derailed from what I assumed was it's original purpose.

I thought we agreed somewhere along the way to keep a seperate "dev" section for all the information the rockbox regulars like to read and keep up to date on.

We're talking about a page here for either the average end user or a new visitor that's never seen rockbox before.

You lot (everyone with a rockbox badge of some kind) can spout your ideologies of what you believe is the "right and correct" way to design a web page as much as you like, but you're NOT the target audience here. Or did I get this completely wrong, and really we're just trying to keep the same page as we've always had ?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: cool_walking_ on April 29, 2009, 03:28:50 AM
Why does being a Rockbox regular discount people's opinions on general things like "fixed-width vs fluid" and "scripting-heavy pages"?  You also have a badge, so what makes you think new users' views don't align with those spouted ideologies?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 29, 2009, 04:09:58 AM
Why does being a Rockbox regular discount people's opinions on general things like "fixed-width vs fluid" and "scripting-heavy pages"?  You also have a badge, so what makes you think new users' views don't align with those spouted ideologies?

It doesn't discount their opinions, but most of the arguments from those who are regulars seem to be floating around the idea "I want the new page to be the same as the old one, except different" - which seems pointless. If that's the case, why bother redesigning it in the first place? And why bother having the "dev" centric one that was floated earlier in the thread at all ?

I'm not going to get into the argument over scripting-heavy vs. scripting light - that doesn't appear to be what the disagreements here are about - baring a few comments about not liking the fade ins of the player images. Fine - if we don't like those that's a dead easy one to remove, and I don't think it affects the page one way or the other.

As for fixed-width vs. fluid - well it's an ideal yes. But macku already said he's not keen to try it, and I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate. So if that's a show stopper then we've wasted his time - a considerable amount of it. I would feel like a complete tool to say to the first person who's taking a serious swing at this "sorry, close but no cigar". As I said way back in this thread we can work on the page over time - it's not static. If someone really wants to redo this layout to make it work in a fluid way then by all means do it. But don't complain about it not doing it and then fail to fix it yourself.

And no, I'm no more qualified to speak for the average end user than anyone else here - this is all just my opinion. Unfortunately there are no "new users" commenting here - they can't - or else they're not new users. And the "average" users who have been in can only really say "I like this, or I don't" since by definition they're not technical enough to follow a discussion on how difficult it is to make a web page truly cross browser compatible and screen resolution independent. I've yet to see a web page that *is* all of those things that doesn't look like a car crash - but again, that's just my opinion.

Everything I've seen macku produce in this thread just looks "right" to me for a consumer friendly web page. Please feel free to discuss further though.


PS - I see this becoming at least one of the topics at devcon. I look forward to the opportunity to get red faced and shouty about it in person :)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: gevaerts on April 29, 2009, 04:55:56 AM
As a point of information, the new site currently doesn't handle big windows well either, due to (as far as I can see) exactly the same bit of page : the "header" bit.

I'll have a go at improving this tonight, if someone can point me to a download location
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: macku on April 29, 2009, 06:06:55 AM
1. Static width
preview (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/)
source files archive (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html2/package_static.zip)

2. Flexible width
preview (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html3/)
source files archive (http://macku.to.pl/rockbox/html3/package_flexible.zip)
Svn on bottom, announcements slider not working.
Have fun.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Hillshum on April 29, 2009, 09:34:47 AM
For those who really can't handle scripting, we could always keep what we have now at old.rockbox.org or something right?

Edit: Though as it stands now, I think we should just make it work when scripting is disabled.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on April 29, 2009, 10:18:47 AM
Couldnt we have the Subversion above Announcments, About Rockbox, and Support?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 29, 2009, 10:28:41 AM
Couldn't we just have them in the dev section and not on the home page at all ?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Hillshum on April 29, 2009, 10:43:48 AM
Yes, but svn shows how active the project is (a total noob won't know what it means, but many will)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: gevaerts on April 29, 2009, 11:49:56 AM
I tweaked the css from package_flexible.zip a bit, and it now handles resizing a bit better, at least on firefox 3 (not tested on anything else yet)

Remaining problems are:
- the supported player list. I suspect that it is possible to fix this in css, but maybe doing it in javascript is easier (a bit of DOM manipulation to put the list of players fully after the list of manufacturers)
- the announcement block  (actually I suspect that the current fixed-layouting will also cause problems with announcements that are too long).
- the sponsors. Is there a reason for loading these from an image strip instead of separate images? It works, but this makes the page markup hard to understand for beginners...

I'm not sure how to solve those, partially because I don't know javascript and because my css knowledge isn't too advanced.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: motionman95 on April 29, 2009, 12:41:47 PM
Maybe I'm just being weird, but for some reason the new rockbox page seems...I don't know, cluttered? It seems like to much is jammed packed together. I like the simplicity of the current website, although I agree that it could use some graphical enhancements.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on April 29, 2009, 01:43:42 PM
Yes, but svn shows how active the project is (a total noob won't know what it means, but many will)
Won't the big changes that "total noobs" will be most concerned with be featured in the "announcements" section, which is quite prominent in this mockup?

I love the svn changes, It's actually the section I have bookmarked currently, but this is because I'm now used to downloading current builds, and know the potential risks of downloading something with unfinished changes. Even if it wasn't what I have bookmarked, subversion is just a click away on the mockup. If we're really worried that people won't know where to find it, we could always change the link from "subversion" (which makes sense to a coder, but possibly not to a "noob") to something more specific ("recent changes", or something). Not something I would actually change, but that's partly because I know what subversion is.

And for what it's worth, I appreciate the fixed width on my widescreen monitor, but I do know it's not everyone else's cup of tea. I usually run my browser not fullscreened anyway, so it's not a huge issue either way.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on April 29, 2009, 06:38:27 PM
Couldn't we just have them in the dev section and not on the home page at all ?

I don't like that idea at all.  We should have an SVN summary on the front page.  It makes our code look accessible to prospective developers and keeps the community informed of who is working on what much more effectively then a once or twice a month major changes update.  The last thing we want to do is make development less front and center, particularly to new developers unfamiliar with our work. 
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on April 29, 2009, 09:07:59 PM
particularly to new developers unfamiliar with our work. 
Honest question... do you get a lot of those? I feel like most developers who come to Rockbox alreay have some idea of its purpose and workings. It just seems weird that a prospective developer would just stumble across this site on a lark.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on April 29, 2009, 11:53:29 PM
Where else would new developers find useful information about Rockbox?

I'd imagine the typical process is "hear about Rockbox from friend / article, visit website, learn more about it." I doubt very much the developer learns much more about it before they get here. There's not too much familiarity it's possible to have before you visit the site.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 30, 2009, 02:32:12 AM
And I doubt very much that said prospective developer would reach the front page, see no evidence of svn activity, and assume the project was dead and there was nothing going on.

If we have a link to this suggested "dev" pages right there on the front page, I'd imagine they'd probably follow it.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on April 30, 2009, 02:49:54 AM
There is still the point that some users have sounded off about being interested in SVN activity.

And it makes it very clear to someone even just skimming that we're still quite active, and very recently so.

An SVN log doesn't have to be obtrusive. Just the last 5 updates, toward the bottom. It's definitely more interesting to users than "Wiki changes" and the mailing list are likely to be.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 30, 2009, 03:12:29 AM
There is still the point that some users have sounded off about being interested in SVN activity.

And all of those users know where to find it even if it's not on the front page.

Quote
And it makes it very clear to someone even just skimming that we're still quite active, and very recently so.

Interesting that so many other OSS projects manage to do without it right there on their home page. I really don't understand what's so special about our svn activity that it has to be there as the very first thing a new visitor sees.

Quote
An SVN log doesn't have to be obtrusive. Just the last 5 updates, toward the bottom. It's definitely more interesting to users than "Wiki changes" and the mailing list are likely to be.

Yeah, I don't think they should be there either to be honest. Not in any more obtrusive a way that the dynamically hidable way macku's currently done it for subversion anyway.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on April 30, 2009, 03:18:27 AM
Yes, current users will know to look for SVN activity on some other page if we remove it now. New users on the other hand may not even be aware it exists.

What exactly is the harm in having an updating activity log visible to users?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 30, 2009, 03:22:53 AM
There isn't any harm in it - I just fail to see why it needs to be on the front page.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on April 30, 2009, 03:26:49 AM
At a glance it shows any new person that we're a very active project.

The other alternative is having someone manually update news often enough that we're never more than a week without at least something on the front page to show work is going on.

It may not be meaningful to the majority of users, but it *does* have a recent date and they can at least infer there's a lot of activity going on without any real technical knowledge.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on April 30, 2009, 03:31:38 AM
My fear is that now that we have a "friendly face" to Rockbox, with the Utility for doing nice easy installs, and release versions that are actually up to date - we risk scaring new users (especially non-technical ones) with what they will likely see as a constant stream of techno babble on the front page.

At least with it hidden in the drop down as it is currently in macku's design it's still available to those too lazy or in someway unable to bookmark a specific svn activity page, but it's hidden from a new user in a way which keeps this new friendly face of rockbox intact.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on April 30, 2009, 04:13:33 AM
I think if you just called the table "Development" rather than "Subversion" it's not likely to scare too many people away. Especially if it's down at the bottom.

I imagine the casual response by those who don't know what it is would be to see the word development, and pay it no further attention.

I don't really buy that extra information is "scary" even if it is development related, as long as there's not an overwhelming amount of it. Just the SVN table, presented as incidental information (maybe even dropping the touched files so that it's just a date and a comment) is, in my opinion, a good way to show people development is very active.

I think a list of recent changes has varying degrees of positive value to all users, including potential ones.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: pondlife on April 30, 2009, 05:10:22 AM
I really like the dynamic-width version, very nice.

A couple of very minor points (both IMHO):
- The lifebelt icon for the manual seems odd - a book or PDF-ish icon would be better.
- Could the subversion stuff fit alongside the wiki and mailing lists? Just include the timestamp and description (adding revision and user if there's room).  That would give a consistent 3 column layout for most of the page.

pondlife
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on April 30, 2009, 08:15:17 AM
The other alternative is having someone manually update news often enough that we're never more than a week without at least something on the front page to show work is going on.
For what it's worth, I think this would be a very nice idea. It might be beneficial to people (both people not familiar with svn, and people who haven't checked back in a while and don't have time to wade through it) if more announcements were made of changes to the code. While touting bug fixes and experimental features in the daily builds might (possibly) wind up having more inexperienced people borking their players, anyone who sees something they have a problem with fixed in the announcements might be more likely to test said features out, rather than just installing the latest stable.

EDIT: This is obviously not to say that EVERY update would be announced, just anything deemed critical by the devs (assumed to be larger bug fixes, but that's up to the implementer of said idea)

It has the potential to backfire, and might not have been what you meant by keeping announcements up to date, but it's what was in my mind when you said it.

As a final note, I would say that svn is more important in being easily accessed than the wiki changes, but that's obviously as a non-developer. Even if my opinion mattered there, I don't think svn would fit where wiki changes is on the mockup, and especially not beside it... it's going to need a lot of horizontal room to display right, even if you take out everything but the description and submitter. I still like the roll-out menu very much.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on April 30, 2009, 12:02:50 PM
My fear is that now that we have a "friendly face" to Rockbox, with the Utility for doing nice easy installs, and release versions that are actually up to date - we risk scaring new users (especially non-technical ones) with what they will likely see as a constant stream of techno babble on the front page.

Is that really a problem?  Do we care if we scare away a few non-technical users?  Is there any possible consequence to intimidating whatever small percentage of people are uncomfortable around SVN web interfaces?  I am willing to argue that there is not.  I am willing to argue that such people are irrelevant.

Conversely, there is a very clear negative impact to this project if we make it any less friendly or accessible to new developers or even new technical users who are not yet developers.  The front page should be accessible to everyone, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be aimed at technical users and developers.    The web interface should help people who may not have done open source development, who have not used SVN or who are not familiar with what kind of work we do get a look at how our project is run and perhaps decide to look more carefully at it.

Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: froggyman on April 30, 2009, 03:04:35 PM

Is that really a problem?  Do we care if we scare away a few nontechnical users?  Is there any possible consequence to intimidating whatever small percentage of people are uncomfortable around SVN web interfaces?  I am willing to argue that there is not.  

I don't think it will scare away the nontechnical users away. I have gotten a ton of my friends to use rockbox (that are definitely not good with computers) and they found it somewhat interesting seeing what kind of development is going on with rockbox. There were also a few who saw it, didn't understand it and didn't care about it/ignored it. I even know some people that know absolutely no programming but still liked to see that the rockbox's software is being updated several times a day.

I do like the idea of putting something by the subversion area saying that it is part of rockbox's development and think that would help people at least make sense of what it actually is if they do get confused about it.

Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on April 30, 2009, 06:37:20 PM
i dont mean to do this but what if we had a wiki page link like how ipodlinux does? i do like how it is on the front page though as thats the first thing i check when i go to rockbox.org. I dont mean to compare the two because there different programs but i do like how rockbox tells you what it is on the front page as ipl does not. maybe its not a good idea what i proposed?

I cannot parse this.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on April 30, 2009, 07:11:56 PM
problem solved
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on May 01, 2009, 01:40:50 AM
Is that really a problem?  Do we care if we scare away a few non-technical users?  Is there any possible consequence to intimidating whatever small percentage of people are uncomfortable around SVN web interfaces?  I am willing to argue that there is not.  I am willing to argue that such people are irrelevant.

Why have we bothered developing Rockbox Utility? Clearly you don't care about non-technical users, so why not just ship a perl script per DAP that does what RBUtil does?

I thought this project was starting to mature to the point where we DID care about such users.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Llorean on May 01, 2009, 01:56:16 AM
I think his question is more "do we care about them to the point where we avoid doing things that are more friendly to prospective developers in favour of prospective users."

And I don't think we've even established that this isn't favourable to both groups.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: pixelma on May 01, 2009, 07:01:18 AM
Sorry, I didn't have much online time the last days so want to say a bit more and want to add some things even about "old" posts.

The white band:
Yes, it's a nice idea to structure the page this way but for me it's too strong. The white part takes all focus and I tend to skip the rest. Suggestion: I'd try reducing the contrast-y things that mark the border (maybe no shadow, get rid or at least tone down the blue gradient), should be tried out.

The smaller font below could also be a reason why I tend to skip this part. I don't understand the argument "it's smaller because it will be more text" - surely you would want the visitor read it the same as the rest if you have more to say and not make it harder? But I didn't hear an answer of macku...

It's possible that my impression of both of the above changes with other content, as Llorean said.

I did provide a suggestion for a tad bit more flexibility which was making the 3 column part a 2 column one, not at such a fixed width. Macku's start shows that it's possible (thank you for that :) ) still it only works at 980+ pixels wide windows. Two columns could also give more room, as I said that part looks a bit too full for me (and someone else agreed). In a previous post I also stated that I would like to try that out myself, problem is that I had a look at the .css file and quickly got lost a bit in absolute position definitions and specific font height settings etc. It will take some time (I didn't have last week).

That brings me to the next thing: why does it need so many font height definitions in absolute pixels? I'm not sure how that works out for visually impaired people or so which would need bigger fonts etc. And I noticed an in my eyes big problem (probably easily fixed to "some" extent) - the dropdown menu is not tabbable (or only the "headlines") unless I turn of CSS and then it's just a list - didn't look closer but I guess some more anchors will do? Oh - and I would also find it nice if the tab-frame wouldn't be suppressed as it looks like.

I also don't think that having the subversion table (maybe below an "development" headline) would hurt, but maybe we can have both with the hidden part, maybe even make the state persistent?

GodEater: I thought that specific suggestions and arguments about that one design show that I'm willing to accept the change to the current one and willing to spend time on improving certain aspects of the new layout, which I really find imortant. Also, does having an own "dev" page (which I'm not sure is necessary) forbid that I have some wishes how the frontpage looks like, or what it does or not? I'd probably like to have a look there from time to time, show friends etc...
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on May 01, 2009, 07:32:19 AM
I think his question is more "do we care about them to the point where we avoid doing things that are more friendly to prospective developers in favour of prospective users."

And I don't think we've even established that this isn't favourable to both groups.

I don't see how we're going to "establish" that unless we conduct some sort of unbiased survey.

I can only relay my personal findings on the subject. My girlfriend who is not a tech savvy person, but who is a tech user has always found the current Rockbox front page diabolical. It's put her off doing any of her own investigation into Rockbox as a product because there's too much technical information on there that has no value to her at all. I showed her the new design and she instantly warmed to it. "Oh good, all the technical junk has been hidden away now, I could probably find my own way around the site now".

Now granted this is a straw poll of one person - but I don't believe she's in a minority. I could name a large number of my friends who are in a similar mind set to my girlfriend who I would never have bothered showing the old site to since I predict they'd be put off by it. I want those people to like it. I want those people to look at it and be made to want to try Rockbox out on their own. I don't want to acheive this by having to be some sort of annoying evangelist who has to sing Rockbox's praises verbally because they dislike the look of the information we're presenting to them.

Again - all my own opinion - you're all free to disagree ;)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Zardoz on May 01, 2009, 08:34:33 AM
I agree with Godeater here. I've referred many people to the site and most complain that they 'don't know what to do'. That's on them. I don't see how friendliness and comprehensiveness are mutually exclusive. Why not include all, some supposedly esoteric, links on the front page? I mean the major sections not the individual links obviously. Equal prominence to all
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on May 01, 2009, 08:52:03 AM
Sounds to me like you're not agreeing with me at all - I'm arguing for *less* stuff on the front page - not more.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: obo on May 01, 2009, 09:25:37 AM
My girlfriend who is not a tech savvy person, but who is a tech user has always found the current Rockbox front page diabolical. It's put her off doing any of her own investigation into Rockbox as a product because there's too much technical information on there that has no value to her at all.

This is the same response my girlfriend had too.  She did not know, nor care, what any of the development information on the frontpage was saying.  For her it was a distraction to the point where she struggled to find out how to get RBUtil downloaded and running (but this was before the download installer button).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: evilnick on May 01, 2009, 10:10:14 AM
I'll add another example of a non-technical user being pointed to rockbox.org and having no idea where to go from there into the mix.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Zardoz on May 01, 2009, 10:51:16 AM
Sounds to me like you're not agreeing with me at all - I'm arguing for *less* stuff on the front page - not more.

Less is best, of course. You misunderstood me....
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on May 01, 2009, 10:51:47 AM
y have we bothered developing Rockbox Utility? Clearly you don't care about non-technical users, so why not just ship a perl script per DAP that does what RBUtil does?

Since we didn't get rid of manual install tools, theres no trade off involved here, and so why not have it if people want to work on it?  Personally I find it quite useful.

I can only relay my personal findings on the subject. My girlfriend who is not a tech savvy person, but who is a tech user has always found the current Rockbox front page diabolical. It's put her off doing any of her own investigation into Rockbox as a product because there's too much technical information on there that has no value to her at all. I showed her the new design and she instantly warmed to it. "Oh good, all the technical junk has been hidden away now, I could probably find my own way around the site now".

Unless your girlfriend is an aspiring open source developer, I think this is her loss, but of no concern to us.  If people aren't interested in running (let alone developing) Rockbox, I see no reason to care that they dislike a technical front page.  In fact, I think a dislike of a technical front page and disinterest in rockbox are likely correlated to a high degree.  
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on May 01, 2009, 01:34:34 PM
Since we didn't get rid of manual install tools, theres no trade off involved here, and so why not have it if people want to work on it?  Personally I find it quite useful.
So we have it because it's useful to us, not to users?

Quote
Unless your girlfriend is an aspiring open source developer, I think this is her loss, but of no concern to us.  If people aren't interested in running (let alone developing) Rockbox, I see no reason to care that they dislike a technical front page.  In fact, I think a dislike of a technical front page and disinterest in rockbox are likely correlated to a high degree.  

Right. Get yourself a cup of tea / coffee / beer and make sure you've visted the bathroom. I've been thinking about this post all afternoon, and conducting some impromptu research.

Before I get going - I want to apologise to any of the badge holders if you feel like any of my contributions to this thread have been some sort of attack on you. It has not been my intention at all. Pixelma particularly - if you still feel by the end of the thread that I've slighted you in some way I give you full permission to slap me when you meet me at DevCon ;)

I guess the crux of my arguments here rest on one decision. Is the front page of Rockbox, once the redesign has been completed, aimed at new users, or new developers? I don't accept that it can be aimed at both. 

This afternoon I took the opportunity of conducting a straw poll of around 500 people who'd (mostly) never heard of Rockbox before. I gave them the URLs of both the old and new home page, and asked for their opinions. The audience here was a mix of true geeks, and what I would call "users". Some of those polled I have no doubt *could* develop for Rockbox in the future should they so desire - some of them could not. To a man they all a) preferred the new layout (which is somewhat understandable on it's own given that it has a more professional feel). b) They all said they felt the developer-centric features of the page didn't belong there. The ones who had the smarts to become new developers felt that were they going to become interested in the project, they'd be more than capable of finding the subversion updates by some other means. Be it through another web page, the mailing list, or actually checking the repository out themselves. Unfortunately I can't paste the log of this conversation into this thread verbatim - I'm pretty certain that despite it's non-business related content that it still legally "belongs" to the organisation upon whose infrastructure it took place.

Individual comments that I recall from it though were :

"Were I to come across this site on my own, the new site would give me the confidence to install this on my precious media player. If i were to be confronted with the developer-centric original page, I would feel the product were obviously not polished enough to risk playing with".

"As a user I'm really not interested in the current state of the development for the product. I'm interested in what features it can bring to me personally, and that's about it".

Moving on from this straw pole (which I admit is merely anecdotal, and you can choose to ignore it or not.) I also had the following thoughts. Some of the people in this thread arguing strongly for the inclusion of the svn commit table right on the front page strike me as the sort of IT professional who regard their users as annoyances. I used to be one of those people - but eventually I realised that I'm supposed to be providing those people with a service. Since I've come to that realisation I've had a much better working relationship with users in my career. Now, you can argue of course that this is a different situation to that of open source development. Here at the Rockbox project, where we're all volunteers we have the luxury of choosing whether we're in it for ourselves, or for our users. No-one is paying us, so we're free to do what we choose right? So what's the answer to that question ?

Now, it also occurred to me that users outnumber developers in the world. I would be very surprised if anyone could come up with a convincing argument to counter that statement. If you have one - please by all means let me hear it. My theory is that the more attractive we can make our home page to "users" and not developers, then the large audience we reach. I mentioned earlier that the poll I conducted whilst at work included an audience that for the most part had never heard of Rockbox. Now they have. Now as much as I wear a "coders" badge on the forums, my actual technical contribution to Rockbox has been minimal over the years, so I must really count myself as a "user" and not a "developer". I love Rockbox dearly, and want people to hear about it. I've told people. Some of them are clever enough and talented enough to become developers. Some of them might do - some of them might not. Is it not a grand idea to repeat this exercise through our website? Let more users find it. Let them not be scared. Let them tell their friends, who might turn out to be developers. Hoping that developers find it on their own seems to be a bad idea to me. Some *will* find it on their own - but I submit that a user centric page is less likely to discourage them than a developer centric one is to discourage end users.

Now the key part of why I don't want any of our regulars to feel like this is an attack on them is this :

I think Rockbox is fantastic. I think that all the hard work that all of you guys and girls is awesome. It's polished, and it's professional - and it's READY for end users to play with without having to have a techy to hold their hands. You people are the heart and soul of Rockbox the product, and Rockbox the organisation and Rockbox the community.

I think keeping our page developer focused is belittling the hard work you all do every day. You all deserve more than that.

Now. I'm sure you all have something to say to all that. I shall await your input with great interest.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on May 01, 2009, 01:42:52 PM
Since we didn't get rid of manual install tools, theres no trade off involved here, and so why not have it if people want to work on it?  Personally I find it quite useful.
So we have it because it's useful to us, not to users?

I don't think thats an accurate summary of what you quoted.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on May 01, 2009, 01:51:48 PM
Explain how it isn't please.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on May 01, 2009, 02:16:40 PM
I largely agree with GodEater in terms of that we should very much care about the users.  I think the proposed new page (which could indeed benefit from many of the suggestions in this thread) is a very good way to go about that.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on May 01, 2009, 02:19:18 PM
Explain how it isn't please.

Well just for starters, it ignores my argument about the lack of a tradeoff, which is really the key point here.  The automatic installer is useful for everyone, so its a net win for everyone.  It also emphasizes an anecdote ("I find it useful") over the actual argument advanced.  

My argument here has always been that the removing the SVN table represents an unfavorable tradeoff between the need to inform people and your desire to recruit more non-technical users for as yet unstated reasons.    
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on May 01, 2009, 02:26:35 PM
I think my large post highlights why I want them quite nicely.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on May 01, 2009, 02:29:17 PM
Would you mind restating it here?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on May 01, 2009, 02:34:57 PM
More users == more developers.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on May 01, 2009, 02:45:16 PM
More users == more developers.

Users who are discouraged by the SVN table are unlikely to ever become developers.  I think at best this argument is incredibly naive, at worst I'd say you were back-peddling:

Quote from: GodEater
we risk scaring new users (especially non-technical ones) with what they will likely see as a constant stream of techno babble on the front page.

Quote from: GodEater
non-technical users

Quote from: GodEater
not a tech savvy person

Quote from: GodEater
there's too much technical information on there that has no value to her at all

and so on.  Do you really expect people for whom code "has no value" to decide, after seeing a website without an SVN table (and only a website without an SVN table!) , to learn c and embedded programming? 
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on May 01, 2009, 03:08:43 PM
You're doing a fantastic job of demonstrating your inability to read. Please continue.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on May 01, 2009, 03:17:39 PM
You're doing a fantastic job of demonstrating your inability to read. Please continue.

Either attack my argument or concede the point. 
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: froggyman on May 01, 2009, 03:18:49 PM
Do you really expect people for whom code "has no value" to decide, after seeing a website without an SVN table (and only a website without an SVN table!) , to learn c and embedded programming? 

I dont think it would be possible to do that with out any other programming skills.

But in all reality, rockbox is going to be more for people* who are already somewhat familiar with computers (not necessarily programming), so they will be interested in seeing what is being done, even if they dont fully understand it.

*I have friends who arent good with computers who will refuse to put rockbox on their iPod because they think it could "hurt it" and make it "slower". I also know someone who claims that he had a friend who used rockbox but he claimed it "destroyed" his iPod.

With that being said, I think that the majority of users would want to see the code updates (SVN table).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: saratoga on May 01, 2009, 03:22:12 PM
Exactly my point.  People who are going to do development are not the people who are concerned about seeing a development log.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Chronon on May 01, 2009, 04:27:28 PM
Just to try to get up to speed, the current argument is about whether or not to have the SVN log on both the user portal and the dev portal?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on May 01, 2009, 11:49:37 PM
I'm confused as well, but for a different reason. Is there a reason that the roll-down log idea on the new page is not sufficient/prominent? It's a click away, and doesn't even take you away from the main page. Would it be a better/worse/moot idea to switch it with where the wiki changes/mailing list entries are, and make those roll-down menus at the top?

Just trying to gauge general priorities, here.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: cool_walking_ on May 02, 2009, 04:15:58 AM
Exactly my point.  People who are going to do development are not the people who are concerned about seeing a development log.

You missed what GodEater said about non-technical users being more numerous, thus generating more word of mouth, thus leading more developers to Rockbox than if they were to just stumble upon it.

And yeah, what's wrong with the slide-out SVN table? (Other than possible slowness on old machines, for which we could remove the actual slide eye-candy and just have it dis/appear instantly.)
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: AlexP on May 02, 2009, 08:34:27 AM
Personally I'd have the svn log (in a cleaned up form) at the bottom along with wiki update etc.  That way it is there and easily accessible, but not the main thing that grabs attention.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: DancemasterGlenn on May 02, 2009, 11:01:21 AM
Do you mean side by side? The only problem I see with it is that svn really warrants a wide space for all the information it displays, so it feels like it needs its own space. In contrast, things like wiki and mailing list don't take up a lot of horizontal space (which is probably why they got grouped together on the current mockup).
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: rasher on May 04, 2009, 04:08:36 AM
Ignoring the argument about the SVN table, it would be nice if it could be moved somewhere else in the page structure, so that it doesn't show up at the top when viewed without CSS applied (or in a non-css-aware browser).

Would this be possible?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on May 12, 2009, 02:56:53 PM
so any new updates on this or we just gonna leave it at that?
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Hillshum on May 12, 2009, 06:06:56 PM
As in changing it any or is it ready?

It is certainly not ready to replace anything, as it doesn't get the SVN, wiki, news, or mailing list, nor are most of the links set yet.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on May 12, 2009, 07:19:31 PM
well there was discussion of the svn. what happend to that? discussion just seemed to stop
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Hillshum on May 12, 2009, 09:56:26 PM
It's at new.rockbox.org right now
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on May 13, 2009, 01:49:19 AM
It's as with everything rockbox related - people need to find the time to do it. So it might have stalled for a bit whilst people have real life issues to deal with. Patience!!!
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: robin0800 on May 13, 2009, 03:25:06 AM
From a quick check just now at http://new.rockbox.org the 0nly things not working are SVN, Major changes and project news, everything else seems to work

Edit

 The page Has changed while I was writing this a lot now doesn't work
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on May 13, 2009, 03:48:47 AM
What's your point ?

new.rockbox.org is NOT the replacement for www.rockbox.org, it's a development playground.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: psycho_maniac on May 13, 2009, 10:44:45 AM
I never said I couldnt wait for that page to be developed.  I noticed that people couldnt agree with where the svn should go. I WAS JUST CURIOUS!
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: Hillshum on May 13, 2009, 10:51:10 AM
Some pictures are still needed, the one of Gigabeat X is really an S, and the other missing ones can be determined at the page. Earlier in the thread are the details on providing the images.

That's the easiest thing left I think...
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: kugel. on May 19, 2009, 02:56:29 PM
We could also have a "Activity" page, which shows ML, wiki and svn (possibly FS too) and is _neutral_ for both users and developers. And everyone interested in the activity looks there, bookmarks this page or subscribes to RSS feeds.

I.e. recent.shtml adapted to the new design.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: GodEater on May 20, 2009, 01:55:17 AM
I think I'd give up with this now if I were you kugel ;)

 The impression I got is that the svn activity is staying on the front page no matter what.
Title: Re: Redesign of the www.rockbox.org front page
Post by: MarcGuay on May 20, 2009, 07:03:40 AM
A small thing:

The bug tracker is listed under "support" on the bottom - this could be misleading.