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Rockbox General => Rockbox General Discussion => Topic started by: torne on November 18, 2009, 06:40:59 AM

Title: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: torne on November 18, 2009, 06:40:59 AM
There is an issue on some iPods where occasionally powering on the player by pressing a normal button does not work, and the iPod must be reset by holding MENU+SELECT before it will power on correctly. If you observe the screen closely when trying to power on you may see a small "low battery" symbol displayed very briefly, without the backlight being enabled.

Have you ever experienced this issue with a standard build? If you have ever seen this happen, even if it's not a frequent occurrence, please select Yes for your model in the poll above. If you have been using your iPod for some time with Rockbox (at least a couple of months, with a build no older than 3.x) and have never seen this problem, please select No for your model in the poll above. If you have some model that's not listed, and you have seen the problem, please post in the thread and state which model you have - but if you haven't, then you can ignore this post. Nano 2G users can also ignore this post as the hardware is completely different and the problem does not exist.

If you have a custom build, please check if the build includes the patch for FS#10107. If you have FS#10107 in your build then do not vote. Other custom build patches are fine. (If you do have FS#10107 but you still see the problem anyway, then please comment to this effect :) )

The reason I am interested is there is a workaround for the problem in FS#10107, but it's not clear for which models it should be applied.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: soap on November 28, 2009, 12:03:55 PM
I said "no" for my Nano 1G, but honestly I don't use it very often at all.  Feel free to discount that vote.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: [Saint] on December 03, 2009, 03:41:06 AM
I have *almost* this problem with My Nano 2nd Gen, it fits what You describe almost perfectly...with the battry icon appearing briefly and then trouble starting the iPod....but with My Nano 2nd Gen, when it actually does restart....it's in DFU mode and I get the lovely wee screen from Apple basically saying "Your iPod's had an epic fail and You have to use iTunes to reinstall the Apple iPod firmware" and I indeed have to do so before My PC will detect My iPod again.

I'm unsure as to whether or not these issues are related..it's only happened twice, and I know the 2nd Gen Nano is an "Unstable build"....but I thought I'd mention My experiences anyway.



Sincerely,
[St.]
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: torne on December 03, 2009, 06:39:04 AM
The 2nd gen nano has no hardware in common with the earlier PortalPlayer based iPods and boots in a different way. I suggest you report that issue elsewhere, as it sounds like the actual storage is getting corrupted...
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: dok on December 06, 2009, 08:24:48 PM
I indeed get this problem on my ipod 5.5G 80Gb very often (soft V3.4 installed through the installer). Quite annoying I must say, but you know that of course. Still, glad to see I'm not alone with this problem.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: macgeek417 on December 27, 2009, 10:49:41 PM
Nope, never on my 5.5G iPod 30GB. (I always do my installations the "old-fashioned" way with the whatever_modal_of_mp3_player_im_installing_rb_on_to_patcher.exe and copying .rockbox to it. Honestly I don't see the point of the RButil as its not at all hard to do it manuly
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: torne on December 28, 2009, 07:56:02 AM
Doesn't matter how you installed it; installing manually and via rbutil are identical once completed, and even the advanced install methods on the wiki don't prevent this problem from occurring. Some people just don't see it, no matter what they do, and some peple get it a lot; without the workaround my iPod Video fails to boot at least one time in three.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: macgeek417 on December 28, 2009, 03:11:51 PM
Gotcha. Just thought I'd mention it in case it mattered.
:)


EDIT: Weird. It just happened to me...
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: Chauncellor on January 02, 2010, 11:21:55 AM
Using a 5.5 video. It has a 40 percent chance of doing that after every time it turns on.

I'm all for inclusion!

[edit]
I would also like to add that my firmware is up to date (Not like Apple's pushing any updates for this old piece anymore, anyway...)
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: wamba on January 04, 2010, 06:02:59 PM
Hi,

I have the exact same problem with my 5.5g 80GB and it happens quite often.

Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: Falco98 on January 08, 2010, 03:03:04 AM
I have noticed this problem with the 80gb 5.5 i just got a week or so ago -- the first time it happened I was worried but once I reset it I was convinced that I'd just mussed something up by resetting it and plugging it into USB so many times, as I was constantly going in and out of it since it was still rather new.  Now I've had the problem maybe once or twice more in semi-daily use during the last week or so; it's not enough to be annoying but just enough to be noticeable.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: Chauncellor on January 08, 2010, 01:55:19 PM
There seems to be quite a large amount of people affected with the 5.5 ipod.

Does this mean that we're going to get the workaround for 3.5? I highly doubt Apple will ever fix this problem. It seems to be up to the great Rockbox guys.

(....pretty please?  :) :))
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: torne on January 08, 2010, 02:46:58 PM
I was originally going to wait until after the release to introduce this patch but I'll discuss it with the other devs, maybe it should go in 3.5.

I think the common-ness of the problem being reported on Video is mostly that more people have a Video, rather than the problem being rare on the others: it's probably best to commit it for all the above targets.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: Chauncellor on January 08, 2010, 05:52:18 PM
Something I don't quite understand is why other 5.5 users aren't affected by this bug. Earlier apple firmware versions? Was this bug introduced a few versions back? It's weird to me.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: torne on January 08, 2010, 06:42:50 PM
If we knew that we might be able to find a real solution :)

The workaround appears to be 100% effective with only minor cosmetic side effects, so it's not bad.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: torne on January 09, 2010, 02:49:30 PM
I have now committed the workaround for this issue in revision 24207, for all the models listed above (4G, Photo, Video, Mini 1G, Mini 2G and Nano 1G). If you experience any further problems with this issue, please let us know ;)
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: Falco98 on January 09, 2010, 04:25:30 PM
I have now committed the workaround for this issue in revision 24207, for all the models listed above (4G, Photo, Video, Mini 1G, Mini 2G and Nano 1G). If you experience any further problems with this issue, please let us know ;)
Think you could give us some details on the "workaround"?  Just out of curiosity.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: yapper on January 09, 2010, 04:32:32 PM
http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/firmware/target/arm/ipod/power-ipod.c?r1=24206;r2=24207;pathrev=24207

"Some ipods do not power on correctly after being shut down and require a hard
reset before they work again. This workaround shuts the device down via the OF
which prevents the problem from occurring. There is a cosmetic effect: the low
battery symbol appears briefly on power of."
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: AlexP on January 09, 2010, 04:32:38 PM
http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/10107 should have all the details.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: Chauncellor on January 14, 2010, 03:30:25 AM
Thank you guys very much. I appreciate a lot of your hard work.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: torne on January 14, 2010, 06:35:55 AM
Boris Gjenero (dreamlayers) discovered the workaround; thanks are due to him. I just committed it :)
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: Chauncellor on January 14, 2010, 11:48:57 AM
Who cares? You're all instrumental in this :).
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: TexasRockbox on January 14, 2010, 04:19:38 PM
Strange, I've never had the problem (running 3.4, presently)  ???
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: shayguitarra on January 17, 2010, 06:36:48 AM
Absolutely marvellous. I had always just assumed this was a problem with my ipod only. Thank you.  :)
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: crescentfresh on January 18, 2010, 01:25:45 PM
I missed the voting on this, but just wanted to say I have an ipod photo running rockbox 3.4, and have this problem constantly.  It's not new to 3.4 either.  I've had this issue pretty consistent with all builds since I first got the ipod back in 2006.  I just assumed it was something you had to deal with when using custom firmware.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: torne on January 18, 2010, 02:24:17 PM
You don't need to vote now, because the workaround has been applied. Current development builds should hopefully not have the problem any more (and nor will 3.5 once it is released).
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: froggyman on January 18, 2010, 06:01:45 PM
You don't need to vote now, because the workaround has been applied. Current development builds should hopefully not have the problem any more (and nor will 3.5 once it is released).

Isn't it possible to lock the poll, or even this thread then?
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: torne on January 18, 2010, 06:46:52 PM
I already closed the poll; I didn't lock the thread since people seemed to be discussing things still :)
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: mfraser on February 06, 2010, 10:50:39 AM
http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/firmware/target/arm/ipod/power-ipod.c?r1=24206;r2=24207;pathrev=24207

"Some ipods do not power on correctly after being shut down and require a hard
reset before they work again. This workaround shuts the device down via the OF
which prevents the problem from occurring. There is a cosmetic effect: the low
battery symbol appears briefly on power of."

Never had the problem with my 30GB iPod video, but it has been happening quite often with the 60GB version I bought a week ago.

Today I upgraded to 3.5 and was wondering about the battery symbol that appeared at power off, the above explains that!!
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: Chauncellor on February 06, 2010, 01:12:27 PM
Thanks so much for including this! It works like a charm.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: Falco98 on February 14, 2010, 10:08:06 PM
I think this patch (due to the nature of how it shuts down the ipod) may be what's causing weird startup issues when plugged into a car connector.  Previously I was able to just plug it in to the car connector in its "off" state and it would start up and start playing; now, however, the ipod does start up fine but the car display *always* halts at "ipod connection problem" and refuses to do anything until I reseat the cable with the ipod already on.  I'll imagine this is a real specific corner-case type situation, but I'm wondering if it will have implications on other similar functions.
My equipment: ipod 80gb 5.5g
car: 2006 scion with ipod connector dock
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: torne on February 15, 2010, 06:50:33 AM
Can you build Rockbox? You can easily discover if this is the problem by comparing a build of SVN r24206 and r24207, which were the versions immediately before/after this change. I don't have any accessories to test this with.
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: torne on February 15, 2010, 11:01:51 AM
vocrobot, the change was committed several weeks ago; there is no need to comment on whether you have the problem.
Title: Re: iPod users: do you have problems starting it sometimes?
Post by: Falco98 on February 20, 2010, 09:55:09 PM
Can you build Rockbox? You can easily discover if this is the problem by comparing a build of SVN r24206 and r24207, which were the versions immediately before/after this change. I don't have any accessories to test this with.
Good point - I'll try if I get a chance.  I only just re-setup my system to make builds a few weeks ago so I could write a patch (for the first time in a few years).
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: dcr693 on March 16, 2010, 12:14:53 PM
Hey everyone, I got a replacement 1G 4Gb nano recently, and I cannot start up Rockbox without resetting it with MENU+SELECT each and every time. I've tried turning it on about 10 tens, and I can't get it to wake up normally hitting Menu or Select. I have to reset it every time. I can indeed see what looks like the "low battery" indicator flashing. My battery was at least 50% charged each time I tried.

I'm running v3.5.1 build 25219, just downloaded this morning.
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: torne on March 16, 2010, 01:55:32 PM
That's odd, but I don't know what I can suggest.. the workaround has worked very well for basically everyone else. :(

Also, I don't think anyone else has previously experienced it 100% of the time. Even my ipodvideo64mb which had the problem very frequently only did it one time in three or four...
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: dcr693 on March 16, 2010, 03:07:32 PM
Thanks for the reply.

In fact, it gets worse. When I shut down under Rockbox, I can see that the screen is flashing "Please wait Very Low Battery" continuously. I might be able to live with that, but it's doubtless eating the battery as it's idle. In the end, it might not even be the same problem as the one you've posted about here.

This might just be a bad nano. I'm going to try restoring it in iTunes and reinstalling RB. I pray that fixes it. :)
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: Falco98 on April 02, 2010, 02:16:20 AM
I am also having a hard time getting the ipod into standard USB mode (as a reminder I am using a 5.5g 80gig, running the 3.5 official build);  When I plug in my USB cable from a powered-off state, it boots into rockbox and then goes to the "Multimedia Mode" screen (with the picture of the USB plug), but as opposed to what it's done before, it never bothers to reset into the "do not disconnect" screen on which I actually get USB connectivity to my PC.  I have no choice at this point but to UNPLUG the usb cable, at which point the ipod *then* decides to reboot into the "Do Not Disconnect" screen, rather briefly, before realizing no USB is plugged in and restarting into Rockbox again.  Argh!  (I tried once, and if I plug the cable BACK in just before getting to the DND screen, it will work).
So now I'm back on my WPS screen and, while it's running, i plug the cable in, and of course now it cycles properly to the DND screen; but only by doing this (i.e. powering the unit on first) can I cleanly get there.  It seems a little odd.
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: torne on April 02, 2010, 06:29:15 AM
Hm, there is seperate code to handle what we call "early" USB, i.e. when the USB cable is already connected at boot. However, it ultimately does the same thing, and I can't see how the shutdown change can make a difference..

I think I have a better fix for this problem, and I'm going to post some test builds later. You can try one of those to see if it fixes the issues you are having?
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: torne on April 02, 2010, 09:22:05 AM
OK, test builds for the new fix are here: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=24376.0
If you have been having any problems since the commit of this workaround, try the new fix and see if your problems go away (but also make sure the startup bug hasn't been reintroduced).
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: Falco98 on April 02, 2010, 11:10:51 PM
OK, test builds for the new fix are here: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=24376.0
If you have been having any problems since the commit of this workaround, try the new fix and see if your problems go away (but also make sure the startup bug hasn't been reintroduced).
I can try it - testing against the startup bug is hard since it's intermittent (and slightly uncommon).  BTW, coach me as to what files *exactly* i have to replace when updating my current build with a newly-built version?  I've tried replacing just the executable before and it caused immediate and halting problems, so I figure I should ask.
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: saratoga on April 02, 2010, 11:22:01 PM
BTW, coach me as to what files *exactly* i have to replace when updating my current build with a newly-built version?  I've tried replacing just the executable before and it caused immediate and halting problems, so I figure I should ask.

See the section on updating rockbox in the manual:

http://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-ipodvideo/rockbox-buildch2.html#x4-200002.4
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: Falco98 on April 03, 2010, 02:04:50 AM
BTW, coach me as to what files *exactly* i have to replace when updating my current build with a newly-built version?  I've tried replacing just the executable before and it caused immediate and halting problems, so I figure I should ask.

See the section on updating rockbox in the manual:

http://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-ipodvideo/rockbox-buildch2.html#x4-200002.4

Actually it ends up that I had to do fresh installs to get it working (had been overwriting files before, as the manual instructs).  It's a little bit of a pain to get all settings transferred and operational again, but seems to be working ok for now.
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: torne on April 03, 2010, 06:36:33 AM
I can try it - testing against the startup bug is hard since it's intermittent (and slightly uncommon).
The idea is you would use this as your main build for days/weeks/months, so if it's going to happen it would show up.
Title: Re: Discussion of now-committed ipod startup workaround
Post by: Falco98 on April 03, 2010, 09:28:43 AM
I can try it - testing against the startup bug is hard since it's intermittent (and slightly uncommon).
The idea is you would use this as your main build for days/weeks/months, so if it's going to happen it would show up.
Yup, will do, running your 3.5.1 now.