Rockbox Technical Forums

Installation / Removal => Manual Installation => Apple - Installation/Removal => Topic started by: GreyBeast on February 13, 2018, 10:24:17 AM

Title: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 13, 2018, 10:24:17 AM
Maybe this has come up before, but it's worth asking.

Seeing that Rockbox and iPod Classics with HD's swapped for iFlash adapters don't work well together, and ESPECIALLY witnessing the seemingly large number of people affected, couldn't we set up a sort of crowdfunding where all those interested sign up, one (or several) of the Classic-savvy developers says how much time it would take him to modify the ATA drivers, and we iPod Classic owners join together to pay you guys to do it?

Good idea or stupid?
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: cereal_killer on February 13, 2018, 11:18:48 AM
Support for the iFlash adapters would be great and I would also donate for the hardware (there is actually a Rockbox fund). I think that datasheets for those adapters are needed too. You could contact Tarkan for that. By the way, a time frame is impossible to give. As far as I know, there are only a few developers for the Classics. Maybe they can be convinced.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 13, 2018, 12:13:16 PM
I just sent an e-mail to Tarkan, with a link to this thread.

C'mon, folks, let's get this done!

I could be wrong, but it seems like such a small issue to take care of (at least we know WHAT causes it). One small step to make an awesome piece of kit (the iPod Classic) work with another awesome piece of hardware (Tarkan's iFlash adapters). It doesn't seem like such a big thing, no?
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: cereal_killer on February 13, 2018, 12:54:43 PM
It doesn't seem like such a big thing, no?

Well, we can't imagine how many man-hours it takes... But indeed, Rockbox on an iPod with a working iFlash adapter would be great.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 13, 2018, 01:10:26 PM
It would friggin' put the ROCK! in Rockbox (at least for iPod Classic owners).
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: __builtin on February 13, 2018, 06:34:55 PM
One small step to make an awesome piece of kit (the iPod Classic) work with another awesome piece of hardware (Tarkan's iFlash adapters). It doesn't seem like such a big thing, no?

Oh yes, it'd be trivial, just like how programming is just punching some buttons on a keyboard.

I think you're underestimating the difficulty and cost of what you're asking for. You can crowdfund all you want, but keep in mind that all the developers have full-time jobs and work on Rockbox not because we're paid for it, but because we enjoy it.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 13, 2018, 10:12:34 PM
I have the utmost respect for your skills. And of course programming is just punching some buttons. Just as Architects just pick out colors and materials :)

Is it possible to explain, in just a few sentences, what exactly it is that would need to be done? The part about "updating ATA drivers", I mean.

I don't even understand why the current ones MOSTLY work, but sometimes they don't. It's not a matter of how many files you transfer, if the Ipod's been transferring music for a long time, etc.
Shouldn't a driver either work or it doesn't? Why does it "feel" like some sort of bottleneck, like the transfer gets clogged up somehow at random times/intervals?

I didn't mean to look like I'm waving money in front of your noses. I understand you do this because (or as long as) it's fun.

Is there a way to start a poll? Some central place where a hand count could be published?
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: saratoga on February 13, 2018, 10:19:44 PM
Is it possible to explain, in just a few sentences, what exactly it is that would need to be done? The part about "updating ATA drivers", I mean.

There are many things that could be done, but the first thing I would try would be to explore the differences between the rockbox driver (which does not work) and the Apple driver (which those adapters are probably designed to work with), and then systematically reduce the differences until the problem no longer exists.  If that fails, reverse engineering how the adapter in question works may provide further clues as to what it requires. 
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 14, 2018, 05:02:34 AM
Well put, saratoga. Tarkan hasn't answered yet.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: cereal_killer on February 14, 2018, 07:16:56 AM
I am curious, if we can get datasheets or more information on the adapters. Tarkan should also be interested in working adapters with rockboxed iPods, which would increase the clientele. I can spot a chip on the board of my Dual SD adapter, but it is coated, so I can't read the printings on it. Maybe I am brave enough to peel the coating off.

Let's hope a skilled person, who also wants this setup working, punches some buttons on a keyboard ;-)
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 14, 2018, 07:33:26 AM
Exactly! Tarkan should be more than willing to provide help. It would boost his sales, after all, if his cards worked flawlessly with the RB firmware.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: cereal_killer on February 14, 2018, 07:51:01 AM
But he also might be interested in keeping the details of his invention secret, so that nobody can copy his product...
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 14, 2018, 07:53:18 AM
Yes, I know. I addressed that in my e-mail to him. Hopefully, he can release enough info for us to go ahead.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 14, 2018, 12:41:09 PM
Here's a little poll I set up, let's see how many people are interested:

https://doodle.com/poll/a9kdnbz4h26sfipv

Don't forget to vote!

PS: Is there a way to send a PM to EVERYBODY registered on these forums? You know, for those that "disappeared into the woodwork" after they realized RB+Classic+Flash is unstable.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: saratoga on February 14, 2018, 12:55:13 PM
PS: Is there a way to send a PM to EVERYBODY registered on these forums?

Do not do this.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: cereal_killer on February 14, 2018, 01:53:24 PM
Yor intentions may be good, but I don't think it is a good idea to annoy forum members. The poll may show how many people are interested, but it won't help to achieve anything. As __builtin said, it needs is a developer who is interested and enjoys working on this.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 14, 2018, 02:27:48 PM
PS: Is there a way to send a PM to EVERYBODY registered on these forums?

Do not do this.

OK, I won't.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: Frankenpod on February 14, 2018, 03:05:05 PM
I don't think throwing money at it serves any purpose.

And I think the chances of the problem getting fixed are quite slim.  It seems like there aren't nearly as many devs or users as there once were, thanks to smartphones (damn them!)

Ideally the magic coding pixies will scatter pixie dust of skill on the rest of us giving us instant technical expertise (crucially, without the need for gruelling effort, that bit's important!) so we can contribute with actual useful work (which is how open source is supposed to work, no?).  Maybe more realistic hope might be Tarkan comes up with a suggestion out of commercial self-interest.

It's a pity because it does seem that there are a _lot_ of ipods still out there, and they appear more durable than most other DAPs so will probably make up an increasing proportion of what rockboxable devices there are.  And modded ipods in effect_require_ rockbox to make full use of the storage, if only because of the OF database size limit.

It seems to me the ipod classic was very over-powered for its intended purpose and original firmware.  Seems a waste _not_ to rockbox them.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 14, 2018, 04:59:23 PM
I agree, Frankenpod. Except for the part about smart phones replacing iPods, since they don't have nearly as much storage capacity, even if you stick with the "small" Classics of 80 and 120GB.

It would be a shame to stop developing, and - you're right - it would be advantageous for Tarkan to pitch in.

Rockbox is awesome, I'd love to have it running on my iPod Classic. But I don't want to do without larger storage capacity and less wear of the battery by using iFlash cards.

I wish I had the slightest inkling of what the problem could be, so that I could look around to see if I can come up with something.

The most frustrating thing is that it sounds like no big deal to fiddle with a driver, they're never larger than single-digit-kB files, after all. (Yes, I know that a text file with a lot of characters is not much bigger).
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: __builtin on February 14, 2018, 06:11:49 PM
You best chance is to try and do it yourself at this point.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 15, 2018, 11:19:39 AM
You best chance is to try and do it yourself at this point.

Dude, I'm sure that entails using hex-editors (not that I know what they do, but I can imagine), and soldering stuff onto the flash card (perhaps), or at least connecting sensing equipment to the logic board, taking the iPod apart, etc. etc.

I don't even know where to start, to be honest. The only thing I've grasped, so far, is that as with all other programs/hardware, the iPod requires drivers to control i/o. It's a small file that tells one side of a process how to "work" with the other side. The driver inserted into the Rockbox bootloader isn't doing that job properly, for whatever reason, and would require being "updated" to do so.

The one thing keeping me from flat-out saying "No, I won't do it" is the fact that driver files are usually tiny, so not much "raw material" to have to consider, although something tells me any developer reading this is quietly laughing at what I just wrote.

Are there any tutorials anywhere on ATA drivers and their innards? I recall having/using a hex-editor millions of years ago to program (or at least "look into") small Windows programs.

Does Rockbox interact with the ATA driver in more ways than "OK, regarding the transferring of files, you (the ATA driver) are on your own"? What I'm asking is, could it just boil down to replacing ATA driver X in the Rockbox firmware with another ATA driver Y (that might have been created more recently, therefore more "compatible")? Or does doing that entail also re-working the rest of the content in the firmware, because it DOESN'T just say "hey you, ATA driver, it's time to transfer files. Do whatever it is you do, but don't ask me if you run into trouble"?
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: saratoga on February 15, 2018, 01:33:15 PM
I think the point was that since you have no chance figuring this out, you should just buy a device that already works or check back in a few years and see if anyone else worked it out. 
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 16, 2018, 04:49:11 PM
I don't think these questions have been answered yet:

-     Is the Rockbox ATA driver "outdated" because it was coded BEFORE the advent of flash cards? Surely there must be other ATA drivers that work with flash cards.

-     Is the "driver" a file that can be replaced by another one that would work correctly? If so, could it be a matter of asking 3rd-party ATA driver coders if they have a compatible driver?
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: saratoga on February 16, 2018, 05:55:21 PM
-     Is the Rockbox ATA driver "outdated" because it was coded BEFORE the advent of flash cards?

No.

-     Is the "driver" a file that can be replaced by another one that would work correctly?

Rockbox consists of files in our source code that can be edited or replaced. 

If so, could it be a matter of asking 3rd-party ATA driver coders if they have a compatible driver?

No.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 16, 2018, 07:00:58 PM

Rockbox consists of files in our source code that can be edited or replaced. 



Could I have a look at the ATA driver files, just so I know what it is we're talking about?
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: __builtin on February 16, 2018, 11:35:20 PM
Yes, you can, though I must say this with no hate, anger, or malice whatsoever: given what you've said in this thread, you have virtually zero chance of understanding it:

https://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=blob;f=firmware/target/arm/s5l8702/ipod6g/storage_ata-6g.c;hb=HEAD
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 17, 2018, 02:31:54 PM
LOL! You're very kind, thanks. No harm taken.

OK, to my novice eyes it looks like different instructions for different errors and/or different device states.

You're right, there's not a chance ***I*** could come up with a solution.

I Know I'm on the verge of being annoying, but is the native (Apple's) firmware so "hardcoded" or "hidden" that you can't use ITS ATA drivers? Or at least look at them to see what the differences are that could be causing Rockbox's ATA drivers to fail?

Just filling in the blanks here.
 
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: saratoga on February 17, 2018, 02:41:42 PM
You cannot use drivers written for one operating system with another. Apple does not provide source code for their firmware, they are not an open source project like rockbox.

These are general questions about how computers and software work. If you're interested, there are a lot of resources out there better suited to learning about computers and programming.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: __builtin on February 17, 2018, 07:47:59 PM
The idea you have of comparing OF ATA driver behavior to Rockbox is correct, but in practice it is much more complicated and requires great reverse-engineering skill to accomplish.
Title: Re: "Crowdfunding", anybody?
Post by: GreyBeast on February 18, 2018, 12:34:43 PM
Thanks, __builtin!