[Sansa Clip+] A better shortcut to return to WPS

[Llorean]

You really haven't covered why using two buttons is such a significant problem that it should displace existing cross-target behavior so that it can be moved from a two-button action to a single-button action.

This isn't a case of something that can't be done at all without the change, but rather the case of something that becomes slightly easier with the change.

In fact, I'm still not wholly certain you're aware that it can be done without the change, since you mentioned it being impossible two of your posts back, and didn't acknowledge the correction.

[mfe555]

I acknowledge the two button method exists, sorry for not having mentioned it. It was mentioned before in this thread:

You try to press two keys simultaneously with one hand to get to WPS but you fail.

[Llorean]

Yeah, it was mentioned several times, which is why it seemed somewhat confusing that your write-up said "the only way" was to use the menu entry for "Resume Playback." Your entire proposal seems to be based around the idea that it's the only way, not mentioning what to do with the combo now that it won't be necessary, not talking about why the combo is impractical to use or anything like that. The write-up doesn't take into account the combo as an existing option, or as something that would need to be changed after your proposed changes are made.

So why not attempt to address it again from the angle of "There are currently two ways to get back to the wps, we need a third" or  "there are currently two ways to get back to the wps, we should replace one of them" since the position of "this can't be done without using the menu" that you wrote about in your proposal just simply doesn't exist, and more or less invalidates the reasoning given there of "we need this button because there's no other way than the menu entry."

[mfe555]

Thanks for your feedback, incorporated below. Not sure whether the two button method should be removed if my proposal was followed:

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Sansa Clip family: Better handling of "home" in the menu (making it easier to go to the WPS)

Currently pressing "home" in the menu executes "GO_TO_PREVIOUS" which takes you back to where you have just been. If you have been browsing the menu, it toggles between the two recent menu levels which is probably not the most useful function.

Some Sansa Clip users would like to have a shortcut for going to the WPS. It is quite annoying that, after activating the file list by pressing "select", both ways of returning to the WPS without interrupting the song being played are relatively inconvenient: either going to the menu and selecting "Now playing", or using the two-button method which some users find difficult to do with one hand. In the Sansa OF, pressing "home" twice takes you to the WPS. This could be achieved in rockbox as well by changing the function of "home" in the menu.

My proposal:
Pressing "home" in the menu changes to

• the WPS
• radio mode
• recording mode

depending on which of these was active before entering the menu, or before entering the file list and then changing to the menu.

From the file list, pressing "home" twice would now take you first to the menu, then to the WPS.

[Llorean]

You haven't really incorporated any of my feedback. You've chosen not to address what should be done about any of the existing functionality this interferes with or duplicates, nor have you addressed why it's a bad enough problem it should displace existing functionality.

[torne]

I use my Clip reasonably often and I have never needed to return to the WPS in enough of a hurry to even bother to find out what the return-to-wps button combination is.

When I'm in a situation where I need to use the player without looking, or couldn't use both hands if needed, I never leave the WPS to begin with; if I were to accidentally press the home button I *could* just press it again to return to the WPS, since I wouldn't've done anything else inbetween. If I'm actually navigating the menus then almost always this is to change what's playing, which will return to the WPS anyway, and if not then I just go hit the relevant main menu option when I'm done.

I really don't see why this needs changing. I have several other devices too, which *do* have enough buttons for a dedicated return-to-wps button, and I rarely press it on those either

[mattofdoom]

Hello all, I've just read through this thread and felt the need to weigh in.

When I first installed Rockbox on my clip (ages ago now) I loved it, but was extremely frustrated by some of the button behaviour, just as mfe555 is. I posted my thoughts here on the forum back then, admittedly far less eloquently than mfe555 has managed, but couldn't find any sympathy so I decided to have a go at patching it myself. It turned out I wasn't as savvy as I remembered, and could never get the thing to work.

Despite this, I've used rockbox ever since and largely love it.

Anyway, for me the issue lies with getting back to the WPS 'blind', which is something I still can't manage despite using rockbox since it first came out on this player. I have however managed to get quite good at cycling with no hands, because I need to use one hand to navigate the player, and the other to shield the screen from the sun, to get back to the WPS.

The argument has been aired that if I want to use the player blind in my pocket, I should just insure I put it away on the WPS. Unfortunately, sometimes I forget. Sometimes buttons get pressed in my pockets. Sometimes, when I reach into my pocket to do something I press the wrong buttons, and now I don't know how to get back to WPS without looking.

Besides me, my clip is also used by about of my 20 friends, and quite a few of their friends -- whoever has the least appealing night-shift approaching. None of my friends are the sort of technical persons who might give rockbox a go naturally, and they universally find my player nearly impossible to use. Something I correlate to the keymap issues mfe555 is highlighting. I'm regularly teased for having a "nearly unusable" knock-off, presumed picked up at some far-eastern flea-market. In the end, I've taught them all to hold down left when switching on to get to the OF, and things have been fine since.

I like mfe555's suggestion because it doesn't break the home button's behaviour of 'taking you back', but aligns it with the psychological expectation of taking you back to the mode you were last in, rather than back to a different bit of that menu.

I'd also love to know why home won't get you out of radio or record mode, but will get you out of the WPS.

Sorry for rambling on.

[sandwich600]

I would also like a "blind", "in pocket" way of getting back to the WPS screen on the Clip+.  I always pause the music when crossing roads.  Doing this it sometimes goes to the pitch alteration screen.  To restart the music, I have to remove from pocket, remove sunglasses, shield the screen while using 2 thumbs to do a simultaneous double keypress.  Then it sometimes happens again at the next road. This is the main drawback with Rockbox for me, but it is still far superior to the alternatives.

I appreciate this key stuff must be hard becuase RB works on so many platforms.  But it would be nice if there was a foolproof way to pause/continue music in pocket.  The pitch alteration is wonderful but probably a thing most people use less regularly than "pause".

My favourite feature is the MP3 crossfade - it's great in the car, on headphones, and on the home hi-fi.

[Llorean]

If you're in the pitch alteration screen, you're probably going to need to look at the device anyway. The suggestion here isn't going to solve your problem.

[mfe555]

Ok Llorean, my next try (added the last 2 parts):

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Sansa Clip family: Better handling of "home" in the menu (making it easier to go to the WPS)

Currently pressing "home" in the menu executes "GO_TO_PREVIOUS" which takes you back to where you have just been. If you have been browsing the menu, it toggles between the two recent menu levels which is probably not the most useful function.

Some Sansa Clip users would like to have a shortcut for going to the WPS. It is quite annoying that, after activating the file list by pressing "select", both ways of returning to the WPS without interrupting the song being played are relatively inconvenient: either going to the menu and selecting "Now playing", or using the two-button method which some users find difficult to do with one hand. In the Sansa OF, pressing "home" twice takes you to the WPS. This could be achieved in rockbox as well by changing the function of "home" in the menu.

My proposal:
Pressing "home" in the menu changes to

• the WPS
• radio mode
• recording mode

depending on which of these was active before entering the menu, or before entering the file list and then changing to the menu.

From the file list, pressing "home" twice would now take you first to the menu, then to the WPS.

Why is this important? - Navigating the menu to go to the WPS requires several key presses and full attention on a very small screen. The two button method, on a player designed to be operated with one hand, is perfect for persons having two thumbs on that hand. Both methods are non-intuitive; especially first time rockbox users, unless they are "manual readers", have a hard time returning to the WPS. Mattofdoom has described the frustration of many of his friends about this. I think we want an intuitive, easy to use rockbox.

What existing functions would be replaced? - The function of the "home" button in the menu would be changed. Instead of 'taking you back' where you've been a second ago (there you can go again easily using the normal menu navigation) it would take you to where you were (WPS, radio mode, record mode) before entering the menu or the file list. The two-button method could stay in place for those who got used to it.

[Llorean]

Why is this important? - Navigating the menu to go to the WPS requires several key presses and full attention on a very small screen. The two button method, on a player designed to be operated with one hand, is perfect for persons having two thumbs on that hand. Both methods are non-intuitive; especially first time rockbox users, unless they are "manual readers", have a hard time returning to the WPS. Mattofdoom has described the frustration of many of his friends about this. I think we want an intuitive, easy to use rockbox.

Using "Home" to return to the WPS also isn't intuitive. Someone will just have to randomly press that button and discover what it does. Meanwhile the "Resume Playback" option is visible and labeled. I can't see how that's less intuitive than a button doing something that its label doesn't indicate.

We've long since come to the conclusion that Rockbox can't be intuitive. There's just too much to it. Instead, we lean toward consistency. Once you learn how things work, they stay working that way between screens. Sometimes even between devices. This way you don't need to read a new manual every time a player breaks or becomes outdated and you need to buy a new one. There is no real escaping the necessity to read the manual once, but one can mitigate how often you have to re-read it.

[mfe555]

Llorean, you're not convincing me. I was about to suggest a poll before reading mattofdoom's posting, after that I was hoping you would accept his report about 20+ users finding rockbox on the Clip "nearly impossible to use" as a kind of result of some poll, though not under transparent conditions.

Without ever having read the original Clip's manual, finding out that pressing "home" again brought you from the menu to the WPS was so easy (experimentally, but not unexpected) that I don't remember it as a problem at all. I do remember how long it took me to find the way to the WPS using rockbox.

The toggling between the two recent levels of the menu is a close to useless function that could easily be replaced by something useful.

Is there a way to start a poll in this forum?

Maintaining consistency would be possible by making this configurable on all players, with a recommendation that Clip users familiar with the OF should consider "my" settings. A sentence like this in a manual, explained by the low number of buttons on the Clip family, won't hurt.

[saratoga]

Llorean, you're not convincing me. I was about to suggest a poll before reading mattofdoom's posting, after that I was hoping you would accept his report about 20+ users finding rockbox on the Clip "nearly impossible to use" as a kind of result of some poll, though not under transparent conditions.

You don't need to make a poll.  No one will care what the result is since we do not put UI changes to a vote. 

[flaps]

We've long since come to the conclusion that Rockbox can't be intuitive. There's just too much to it. Instead, we lean toward consistency. Once you learn how things work, they stay working that way between screens.

That doesn't exactly hold true for the Clip+.

Quoting its manual "Power: Leave the radio screen with the radio playing". This isn't intuitive nor consistent between screens and players. Power button always stops the song or plugins, or at least it should. So, why was it made that way, different from all other players? Because the Clip+ has too few buttons, so an exception was made. This is unpredictable and confusing, even for someone used with Rockbox. Even worse for the Recording screen.

I believe this would make a really pertinent exception, too.

[saratoga]

Quoting its manual "Power: Leave the radio screen with the radio playing". This isn't intuitive nor consistent between screens and players. Power button always stops the song or plugins, or at least it should. So, why was it made that way, different from all other players? Because the Clip+ has too few buttons, so an exception was made. This is unpredictable and confusing, even for someone used with Rockbox. Even worse for the Recording screen.

Well yes, obviously when theres not enough buttons to be consistent, its not possible to be consistent.